Bolex H16 or Filmo?

[Evan Kubota]

"Not to be a PITA, but I would recommend seeing some processed film shot by that camera before declaring it "excellent" or "great"."

True enough. In a few weeks, once I get some film and my 10mm Switar. Anyway, if the claw and shutter appear to be functioning properly, the spring motor works well, and the gate is clean, the results should be fine (not considering optics). I'm going to try using a video camera to observe the shutter and claw and try to determine how close the actual frame rate is to the markings on the dial. There was also a small sticker in the film compartment indicating that it was serviced at some point by Chambless. No date, though.

[Evan Kubota]

Sorry, there is a date. June 2001. Not sure exactly what was done. About to run a frame rate test with my GL2.

[ccortez]

serviced at some point by Chambless. No date, though.

call them and ask them to look it up by serial #. they're camera folks, they just may be anal enough to keep and search records that old.

can't be a bad thing that it has at least once been put right by a technician. good luck with it. i love my non-reflex H-16 (105511). it has been my primary 16mm camera, and will be until any day now when my R16 gets back from Bjorn-landia. i have all 5 Switar ARs that all focus perfectly on the H-16. i hope they are as good on the R16.

i love the H-16, but i can't wait to see and meter thru the lens again.

[Patrick]

I am not sure if I would agree that the Beaulieu R16 and the Krasnogorsk 3 would necessarily be "better film making tools" than a Bolex H16. Sure, the Bolex is a little awkward to handle and the reflex viewfinder isn't the greatest but it's an extremely versatile machine. It's top running speed is 64fps whereas the K3 only goes to 48fps top speed. The R16 is just as versatile as the Bolex with it's running speeds plus the auto exposure feature might be a handy option. According to one source, the Bolex is capable of doing time exposures. Both the Bolex and the K3 have the advantage of being able to be used without batteries, handy if you are filming in some remote location possibly far from civilisation whereas the R16 requires batteries.

I have never looked into the viewfinder of an R16 but I have heard that they are highly regarded and probably just as user friendly as a K3's viewfinder. Both the Bolex and the K3 can be successfully converted to super 16 though the R16, because of the small size of the mirror shutter, cannot. The Bolex also has a reputation for robustness, extreme precision with it's running speeds and producing footage as steady as that produced by a pin registered camera. On the other hand, I have heard reports from people that R16s are a little bit more fragile. I don't know if this is a common thing or not but one person commented that initially when running film through an R16, there is slight delay before the tachometer kicks into action to maintain the correct frame rate.

[Lunar07]

........................................
According to one source, the Bolex is capable of doing time exposures.
......................................

Your source is absolutely correct. A Bolex does Time Exposure on the T setting - this is the I-T lever or the I-T knob by the 8:1 shaft.
This lever determines if Single Frame or Time Exposure when the sliding knob on the side used to run the camera is moved to the right.

[Patrick]

That is interesting, Lunar. Once at a camera fair, I actually asked a seller of a Bolex H16 at a stall whether he could confirm that this camera was capable of doing time exposures and he replied with a definite 'No.' Just goes to show there is so much misinformation going around.

[audadvnc]

Bolex vrs filmo? I have a reflex H16, works fine and takes good films. But I always use a Filmo, despite the parallax issue. It's a matter of personal taste, but I think the Filmo 70DA and 70DR are more comfortable for hand-held shooting than the H16; I like the way the camera frame rests against my forehead for support, as opposed to the H16's unsupported hand-held stance.

Note the Filmo 70HR and 70KRM cameras that accept 400' magazines are -not- good hand-held cameras. The magazine door assembly jabs you in the eye when you try to hold one like a 70DR. But they're all fine on tripods, and the 400' magazines (on Bolex Rex5/SBM/EBM or Filmo HR/KRM) allow you to shoot a reasonable length of film (12 minutes) between changeovers.

The Bolex supports more modes, like single frame capture for animation, and has an adjustable shutter angle for in-camera fades and efx. The Filmo is easier to hand-crank for that silent movie effect.

But sooper8fan, aren't you using a B&H 2709 in your avatar? That's better than either. Film's pricier, though.

[Evan Kubota]

Note that not all of the H16s have variable shutters, just the reflex models.

I agree that the H16 is not great for handheld shooting, especially with a heavy, large zoom on the mount. I'm making a grip that'll alleviate the problem, though...

[odyssic]

At least the reflex Bolex can do time exposures for sure. Look in any of the instructions on the web or hard copy. I'm not sure about non reflex but I assume. I'd say when using the grip the bolex is fairly comfortable, expecially with primes. I think handholding in general with a large heavy zoom is awkward enough, but honestly I do it all the time and you get the hang of it. Usually I just palm the camera too, instead of using that giant grip (because it is bulky and heavy to cart around). And you can place one hand over the top under the strap for more support (which is more comfortable on the non magazine models). Anyway, find the camera with the features you want and you'll probably get used to hand holding it. If you are highly irritated by the ergonomics you can always pull a switch.

I've read that the R-16 is fairly fragile, and often stops working after slight bumps and such? Is this true? I also like the no battery idea and the possibility of adding a motor for sync shots or longer takes.

Steven

[Evan Kubota]

The non-reflex can do it also - I have mine sitting in front of me. Steven - that Macro Switar on eBay you have is pretty nice... was going to try to get it but the price has gone fairly high.

[odyssic]

Those lenses are rather sought after. Sweet macro stuff. I got a zoom that can do macro like that so I didn't need it anymore. I thought it would break $300 but two more listed at around the same time. They screwed me those two.

;)

Steven

[sooper8fan]

Has anybody had any experience with the Eumig C16??

[jessh]

I have shot a decent amount of stuff on various Bolexs and a filmo DL. They both have pros and cons but I would personally recomend buying a Filmo DL or later.

The paralax viewfinder on the filmo is one of the best designed ones I have ever seen. As long as you have the objectives for all of your lenses you will come to learn to love the super bright image it gives you. The viewfinder on the non reflex bolexs and the older filmos use masks to adjust for different focal lengths which gives you a very small image when using telephoto lenses. The Filmo DL and newer solve this problem.

Reflex bolexs use a prism which degrades the image quality and shifts the focal plane. Because of this they requires special lenses at wider focal lengths. Older reflex bolexs have an extremely small and dark viewfinder image making the reflex viewfinder almost useless. A newer bolex such as the SBM has a decent viewfinder but it uses a prism in the film path which degrades the quality of the image reaching the film.

Bolexs have a very narrow shutter angle. This combined with the prism which diverts light for the viewfinder means that you need a considerable amount more light than you do with a filmo which has a wide shutter angle and no prism.

If you need to use a zoom lens instead of primes a Bolex SBM or EBM would be your best choice. The SBM comes equiped with a very nice zoom lens and the reflex viewfinder allows you to use it. But expect to pay atleast 10 times as much for this package as you would for a filmo package that would give you sharper images and require less light. If you require an electric motor the EBM is an electronic verion of the SBM but it is of course even more expensive.

The filmo is a simple rugged camera that will take a beating. Bolexs have a good reputation but in my experience they are much more fragile and require much more upkeep. Oil your filmo every once in a while and it should last forever without fault(this is very easy to do).

I don't have any experience with K3s myself but from what I hear the only way to get a reliable one is to get a remanufactured one.

As far as lens choices go. Most filmos will come with a 25mm lens. The standard additional lens choices are a 75mm and a wide angle lens (something in the 10mm-16mm range). These 3 lenses will give you a very good start. The next lens you would most likely want would be a 50mm lens. I have a couple of c mount lens adapters that let me use my still photo lenses on my film cameras, this is a great way to go if you need telephoto lenses. Using my 300mm macro lens in super8 and 16mm is fun :-)

I hope I was helpful.

~Jess

[ccortez]

jess,

how do you frame your image at really long distances like 300mm w/non-reflex filmos and bolexs that don't have viewfinder objectives or settings for anything that long?

i'd like to play with my nikon zooms too, but i'm waiting until i put the turret-strengthening plate on my R16 so i can see what i'm looking at. and even with the plate, i'm not sure i want a heavy tamron zoom hanging off my camera. 8O

[Lunar07]

Has anybody had any experience with the Eumig C16??

I have the Eumig C16R (with turret that places auxiliary lenses over main normal fixed lens). C16 is turretless. You have to get the auxiliary lenses separately with the C16. A beautiful camera with a great needle match battery-less exposure system. C16R has an amazing clear view finder along with parallax adjustment and complete manual control of exposure via an ASA setting and the needle matching aperture control. Very reliable and heavy duty. Never fails. This camera was directed at the 'home film maker' in 16mm who could afford to go up from R8. Interesting to have the C16 or C16R in addition to the C3R or C3M in R8 (C3M is more versatile.)
Eumig 16mm cameras (C16/C16R) are picking up interest as seen on eBay. I was lucky enough to have gotten an excellent one for a whopping $30 along with a set of filters couple of years ago when no one knew what a Eumig C16R is. The leather Eumig case is a 'Louis Vitton' quality case. This thing on its own is wroth more than $30. So basically I got the camera and its manual for free along with a $30 Eumig leather case :-D Right now, their prices are picking up.
Eumig developed their in-house coated optics without buying technology from anyone. As such, they are true pioneers and have their own school. Do not let the auxiliary lens business over the normal lens fool you. These are super Eumig optics that people are overlooking. They give nice cool sharp colors with a nice defined contrast that does not hit you in the face. With slight diffusion filtering you can create awesome atmospheric shots -

Eumig C16/C16R is an impressive machine. Get one while you can. This camera has no back rewinding of frames and no time exposure like the Bolex. This is intended for movie making and everything in it is designed for the business of runnimg film without fail.

The lenses use a unique bayonet at the front for their filter holder. Unique in the sense that you are not going to find the filter holder :-D Nothing fits this thing! Instead, use the Kodak 41mm Slip On - Series 6 adapter. Perfect fit and much better since you can use then Series 6 filters.