WalMart, the great saviour of small format filmmaking...

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MovieStuff
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Post by MovieStuff »

steve hyde wrote:
Where does surplus value come from? It come from labor right?
nature + labor = value.
Not always and not mostly. If I buy an item from one market that considers that item to be worth X number of dollars and resell it in a different market that values that item at XX number of dollars, my profit is based on how much the market values my product, whether I have labor invested in it at all. If I make an item from scratch using hired labor, the degree of mark up on that item is determined not by any calculated inequality or greed on my part but, rather, by what the market will bear. If I am the only person selling that item and it is vitally needed, then my profits are high. If I have competition selling an identical item, then my profits are cut in half. But my cost to produce is still the same.
steve hyde wrote: What is the capitalist driven to do? Keep the cost of labor down. The capitalist is motivated to find the cheapest labor. Sometimes that comes in the form of forced unpaid or grossly underpaid labor.
Yes, but "sometimes" is hardly the same thing as saying that "capitalism requires inequality." The term "inequalilty" denotes a level of abuse and lack of compassion that can be true but doesn't have to be true. It may very well be that many companies act in that fasion but, again, it isn't a requirement to succeed in capitalism. It would be like saying that the inherent problem with racing is that you have to cheat to win a race. Obviously that isn't true. While someone has to lose, competing doesn't mean you have to be abusive.

Roger
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Post by JGrube »

I'm probably crazy for jumping into this, but what the hey...
There are always those that gorge themselves and abuse the system. However, capitalism isn't represented by the worst it has produced but, rather, the best it has to offer. It's all about social responsibility, not something inherently evil within the system.


I think this may be the key. I don't think there is anything inherently evil about capitalism. There is a great deal of trouble with the WAY in which capitalism is applied, not only in the US but througout the world.

I would contend that, unfortunatly, capitalism IS often represented by the worst it has to offer, and that is what is most troublesome, and social responsibility is often hard to come by. That's really what bothers me, and I do think it is important to speak out (granted, perhaps the Small Gauge Film Forum isn't the ideal place, but here we are). What's more, I think that those of us who benefit from capitalism should be the MOST concerned about how it is applied throughout the world.

Wal-Mart is not the WORST example of at-all-costs profit making, they are simply the most visible. The irritating thing about Wal-Mart is that it represents the paradigm of current big business. The reason you don't see people at Target and JC Penny better wages is because they are all adopting Wal-Mart's business model in order to be competitive.

I think the timing of this discussion is interesting considering that recent approval of CAFTA (the Central American Free Trade Agreement) which is the little brother of NAFTA, which sparked a revolution of Mayan Indians (the Zapatistas) in Chiapas, Mexico on the very day that it passed. NAFTA has been good for the U.S. and Canada, and has been absolutely devastating to the indiginous people of Mexico. I'm not really sure how we could screw the Mayans in Central America any worse than we already have, but I'm sure CAFTA will open many new roads for that.

I know, I'm a Capitalist, I live happily because Capitalism exists, but we still need to be allowed to speak against un-ethical behavior, even if we share a portion of the blame by participating in the system that engenders that behavior. For example:

I like Guatemalan coffee, it's really excellent.

I like getting a good deal on Guatemalan coffee.

I don't like seeing hundreds of dead Mayan Indians laying in shallow graves in Guatemala because the Death Squads that are funded by the coffee growers kill them because the land upon which they live is adjacent to the coffee plantation and the growers really need that land to increase their profits and both the American and Guatemalan governments look the other way because business is so good.

I think that might be going just a little too far. I think I'd be willing to pay a little more for coffee and bananas so that a few thousand marginalized people could be allowed to go on living.

So, do I think having Wal-Mart process my Super 8 film makes me an oppressor of poor people throughout the world. Not really. Do I think we need to keep an eye on big businesses like Wal-Mart to ensure that they really do maintain social responsibility. I think we should.

Wow, that went on for a while, sorry. This political whatnot really sucks you in.

Best,

Jason
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Post by ccortez »

Great post, Jason.

Just to bring this back to film for a minute, this sounds like an interesting movie I haven't yet seen:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/m ... html?8hpib

Oh, yeah, some folks don't like to register at NYT. No problem...

Reposted without permission from the New York Times online edition, August 3, 2005. But it's OK, they're a giant corporation, they can take it. :p

###

Feeding Europe, Starving at Home

By A. O. SCOTT
Published: August 3, 2005

"Darwin's Nightmare," Hubert Sauper's harrowing, indispensable documentary, is framed by the arrival and departure of an enormous Soviet-made cargo plane at an airstrip outside Mwanza, Tanzania. The plane, with its crew of burly Russians and Ukrainians, will leave Mwanza for Europe carrying 55 tons of processed fish caught by Lake Victoria fisherman and filleted at a local factory. Though Mr. Sauper's investigation of the economy and ecology around the lake ranges far and wide - he talks to preachers and prostitutes, to street children and former soldiers - he keeps coming back to a simple question. What do the planes bring to Africa?

The answers vary. The factory managers say the planes' cavernous holds are empty when they land. One of the Russians, made uncomfortable by the question, mutters something vague about "equipment." Some of his colleagues, and several ordinary Mwanzans, are more forthright: the planes, while they occasionally bring humanitarian food and medical aid, more often bring the weapons that fuel the continent's endless and destructive wars.

In any case, they leave behind a scene of misery and devastation that "Darwin's Nightmare" presents as the agonized human face of globalization. While the flesh of millions of Nile perch is stripped, cleaned and flash-frozen for export to wealthy countries, millions of people in the Tanzanian interior live on the brink of famine. Some of them will eat fried fish heads, which are processed in vast open-air pits infested with maggots and scavenging birds. Along the shores of the lake, homeless children fight over scraps of food and get high from the fumes of melting plastic-foam containers used to pack the fish. In the encampments where the fishermen live, AIDS is rampant and the afflicted walk back to their villages to die.

The Nile perch itself haunts the film's infernal landscape like a monstrous metaphor. An alien species introduced into Lake Victoria sometime in the 1960's, it has devoured every other kind of fish in the lake, even feeding on its own young as it grows to almost grotesque dimensions, and destroying an ancient and diverse ecosystem. To some, its prevalence is a boon, since the perch provides an exportable resource that has brought development money from the World Bank and the European Union. The survival of nearly everyone in the film is connected to the fish: the prostitutes who keep company with the pilots in the hotel bars; the displaced farmers who handle the rotting carcasses; the night watchman, armed with a bow and a few poison-tipped arrows, who guards a fish-related research institute. He is paid $1 a day and found the job after his predecessor was murdered.

Filming with a skeleton crew - basically himself and another camera operator - Mr. Sauper has produced an extraordinary work of visual journalism, a richly illustrated report on a distant catastrophe that is also one of the central stories of our time. Rather than use voice-over or talking-head expert interviews, he allows the dimensions of the story to emerge through one-on-one conversation and acutely observed visual detail.

But "Darwin's Nightmare" is also a work of art. Given the gravity of Mr. Sauper's subject, and the rigorous pessimism of his inquiry, it may seem a bit silly to compliment him for his eye. There are images here that have the terrifying sublimity of a painting by El Greco or Hieronymus Bosch: rows of huge, rotting fish heads sticking out of the ground; children turning garbage into makeshift toys. At other moments, you are struck by the natural loveliness of the lake and its surrounding hills, or by the handsome, high-cheekboned faces of many of the Tanzanians.

The beauty, though, is not really beside the point; it is an integral part of the movie's ethical vision, which in its tenderness and its angry sense of apocalypse seems to owe less to modern ideologies than to the prophetic rage of William Blake, who glimpsed heaven and hell at an earlier phase of capitalist development. Mr. Sauper's movie is clearly aimed at the political conscience of Western audiences, and its implicit critique of some of our assumptions about the shape and direction of the global economy deserves to be taken seriously. But its reach extends far beyond questions of policy and political economy, and it turns the fugitive, mundane facts that are any documentary's raw materials into the stuff of tragedy and prophecy.

Darwin's Nightmare

Opens today in Manhattan.

Written (in English, Russian and Swahili, with English subtitles) and directed by Hubert Sauper; director of photography, Mr. Sauper; edited by Denise Vindevogel; produced by Edouard Mauriat, Antonin Svoboda, Martin Gschlacht, Hubert Toint and Mr. Sauper; released by Celluloid Dreams/International Film Circuit. At the IFC Center, 323 Avenue of the Americas, at Third Street, Greenwich Village. Running time: 107 minutes. This film is not rated.
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Post by JGrube »

CCortez,

Wow, you actually managed to bring this soap-box parade back to film. Well done, sir.

BTW, I need to see that movie! As you can probably tell, I'm a junkie for this kind of information.

Thanks,

Jason
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Post by marc »

steve hyde wrote:
Nigel wrote:So how about them Astronauts?? They sure are doing their job. Bringing water, cutting bits of cloth, floating around...

We should shoot some film.

Good Luck
PS--I love Capitalism.

....I know - we should make that flight to the moon. I hear some Yankees left a full Hassleblad large format kit there in 1969. Something about saving weight for the ride home. I guess that makes it free for the taking.

Die Capitalism Die!!!


STeve
I heard through the grapevine that the owner of a camera store that I frequented a few times owns one of the Hasselblad cameras that was used on the moon.
Last edited by marc on Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ccortez »

I thought there were a whole slew of Hassy's on the moon. 9 or something?

I got dibs on one if Nigel gets his ass up there.
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Post by Nigel »

That assumes you have the cash Ccortez. What you think I am some Pinko giving away cameras;)

Good Luck
PS--Look Hassy's from Heaven....
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Post by ccortez »

Nigel wrote:That assumes you have the cash Ccortez. What you think I am some Pinko giving away cameras;)
To each according to his needs, a**hole. Now gimme that 'blad, I needs me one!
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Post by ccortez »

I know I'm partially responsible...

But I think it's pretty sad that this thread has more posts and replies than the first-ever 64T tests. Image
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Post by Nigel »

OK OK you get one...Only after you show that you have given 50 bucks to the Libertarian Party or read "Capitalism and Freedom" by Milton Friedman.

Good Luck
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Post by ccortez »

Nigel wrote:OK OK you get one...Only after you show that you have given 50 bucks to the Libertarian Party or read "Capitalism and Freedom" by Milton Friedman.
I actually voted straight Lib (and wrote in Ralph Nader, mainly b/c the effort to keep him off the ballot here was so nasty) in the last general election, but mostly as a protest vote, I'm not really a libertarian. But I'm definitely not a Democrat or Republican either, which makes voting a little more complicated. ;)
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Post by steve hyde »

Nigel wrote:OK OK you get one...Only after you show that you have given 50 bucks to the Libertarian Party or read "Capitalism and Freedom" by Milton Friedman.

Good Luck

ugh!! Milton Friedman - what a crackpot!!

"If fire fighters fight fire and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?" ~ George Carlin

Milton Friedman ain't no freedom fighter.....

Steve

edit: needed quotes above
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Post by MovieStuff »

It isn't a political affiliation but I'm a Frisbeetarian, myself. I believe that when you die your soul gets stuck up on the roof.

Roger
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Post by steve hyde »

MovieStuff wrote:
steve hyde wrote:
Where does surplus value come from? It come from labor right?
nature + labor = value.
Not always and not mostly. If I buy an item from one market that considers that item to be worth X number of dollars and resell it in a different market that values that item at XX number of dollars, my profit is based on how much the market values my product, whether I have labor invested in it at all.

If I make an item from scratch using hired labor, the degree of mark up on that item is determined not by any calculated inequality or greed on my part but, rather, by what the market will bear. If I am the only person selling that item and it is vitally needed, then my profits are high. If I have competition selling an identical item, then my profits are cut in half. But my cost to produce is still the same.
These are really good points Roger. You have fairly complicated my oversimplified short-hand critique of capitalism. And I should add, that I admire independent producers like yourself. And if Walmart started selling "workprinters" for half the price you sell them, I think I'd still buy one of yours because I know part of what I am buying is quality craftsmanship backed up by quality customer service. In addition, you are capitalizing primarily on your own labor power. You produce a value-added type commodity.

I'm not trying to make a good vs. evil type oversimplified arguement here. I think there are a lot of admirable independent producers that don't exhibit a lot of greed and exploitation. That is why I go out of my way to spend my money at independent establishments.
steve hyde wrote: What is the capitalist driven to do? Keep the cost of labor down. The capitalist is motivated to find the cheapest labor. Sometimes that comes in the form of forced unpaid or grossly underpaid labor.
Yes, but "sometimes" is hardly the same thing as saying that "capitalism requires inequality." The term "inequalilty" denotes a level of abuse and lack of compassion that can be true but doesn't have to be true. It may very well be that many companies act in that fasion but, again, it isn't a requirement to succeed in capitalism. It would be like saying that the inherent problem with racing is that you have to cheat to win a race. Obviously that isn't true. While someone has to lose, competing doesn't mean you have to be abusive.

Roger
I'm saying inequlaity is endemic to capitalism. I'm not saying that there are not any compassionate people working under the capitalist mode of production. I'm just saying that capitalism produces and reproduces inequality through a system of exchanges that shift wealth into the hands of the few by taking away from the hands of the masses.

Don't take my word for it. Have a look at the data:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/h ... eqtoc.html

Personally, I see compassionate producers getting crushed by producers that lack compassion. Walmart is the case in point. We live in a society that rewards producers for being ruthless. You are right that competing doesn't mean you have to be abusive, but it sure is hard to compete with a producer that has the freedom to choose to be abusive and is to turn a greater profit.

That is what Walmart does.
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Post by steve hyde »

MovieStuff wrote:It isn't a political affiliation but I'm a Frisbeetarian, myself. I believe that when you die your soul gets stuck up on the roof.

Roger
.....where do I sign up?

Steve
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