WalMart, the great saviour of small format filmmaking...

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

Ehhh, mistake...... :oops: deleted.....

[MovieStuff]

In another post, you presume that the workers of the world are better-treated now b/c watchdog groups protect them. A reality check is in order.....

I think you misunderstand what I was trying to get across which is simply that worker exploitation isn't a modern issue. Whether it is worse today isn't really the issue. It was bad enough back then to warrant consideration for anyone that really cares, especially if they are buying a product made back then.

Previously, I had written:

"Again, talking about ethics is a fun hobby but practicing ethics requires a lot of resolve and more sacrifice that most of us are really willing to shoulder."

Disingenuous, Roger. Ethics is about each small choice one makes, and it's not binary. One can behave more or less ethically. It's not enough to say, "Ah well, it's all too much, everything has it's ethical cost so I'll choose not to consider any ethical cost at all."

Actually, I'm not being disingenuous at all, Chis. But there aren't tags on foreign products that equate the level of worker exploitation and abuse involved in making a given product.

"Gee, honey, only 3 under age Korean kids lost fingers while making this quilt while that blanket from Malaysia has a finger rating of 6! " ;)

So while I agree that ethics certainly isn't binary, if someone is really bothered about buying products made through exploited labor, they aren't going to make their purchases based on whether the workers were exploited more in making one product or less in making another product. And, more to the point I was originally trying to make, goods made in another country by exploited workers long ago aren't "sanitized" simply because they appear 35 years later as unwanted junk on ebay.

Roger

[Evan Kubota]

"This does not erase the reality of the situation--that this corporation does real harm, to real people, in so many ways. Don't take my word for it. These facts about the damage Walmart does to communities, and the truly shitty way it treats its employees, are well-documented. You can personally choose to ignore these facts if you wish. But don't deny them outright simply because they don't fit into your priveleged world-view and sanitized politics."

But you still process your film there. Blah blah blah.

Chris - you think your Nizo was made by Germans with PhDs in between designing the next Porsches? German manual labor is not really different than Japanese manual labor. To imply otherwise is absurd.

FWIW, didn't Bauer manufacture some cameras in Malaysia or Thailand? I recall reading that on super8man's website.

To the rest of the thread: the point is that Wal-Mart is not the only large corporation. If you want to spout off about how much you hate their corporate policies, great. But don't use any of their services or do any shopping there. If you drop off your film there you automatically waive any right to tout yourself as some kind of ethical model, at least by the 'rules' and standards you have blathered about.

Tim - why would anyone address your posts with civility? You're the one who barges into the thread talking about how you respect workers but want to 'fuck as much shit up' as you can before leaving the store. You never explained how this equates with respect for workers, and who you think will have to pick up the stuff that you scattered across the floor.

The way you write and think reminds me of a freshman in college, so flush with misdirected rage at the 'system' that you completely discard logic in favor of making absurd, unrealistic statements about situations which you know very little about.

[scott]

Thank God those 7 year olds in China will work for 10 cents a month, so I can continue to get cheap processing! I mean, why doesn't Wal Mart expand into Africa? I'm sure kids there will work for a handful of rice per month, just to avoid being sold into the sex trade.

The new "Made in Africa" goods would make "Made in China" look like extravagant luxuries. Exploitation? Nah... Captialism!

Scott

ps. This is what part of the alphabet would look like if "q" and "r' were missing.

pps. This messgae is filled with so much sarcasm and flippancy that it is difficult to figure out my actual position on these issues. This is intentional.

[steve hyde]

"Walmart, the great saviour of small format filmmaking" is the title of the thread.

"Walmart: A NEW RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

was the title of one of the last ones that "Super 8 man" posted.


What is going on "Super 8 man"? Why do you feel compelled to make a public stance for Walmart? I can only imagine you are wearing a tight blue shirt with a red capital W on it and a red cape.

If Walmart is what you stand for, that's your choice. You are a cheerleader for global capitalist development. If you can't beat them, join them right?

God save the King.

Steve

[ccortez]

Disingenuous, Roger. Ethics is about each small choice one makes, and it's not binary. One can behave more or less ethically. It's not enough to say, "Ah well, it's all too much, everything has it's ethical cost so I'll choose not to consider any ethical cost at all."

Actually, I'm not being disingenuous at all, Chis. But there aren't tags on foreign products that equate the level of worker exploitation and abuse involved in making a given product.

"Gee, honey, only 3 under age Korean kids lost fingers while making this quilt while that blanket from Malaysia has a finger rating of 6! " ;)

Fair enough. I'm sure my accusation was a little disingenuous too, but this is an ARGUMENT, dammit! ;-)

So while I agree that ethics certainly isn't binary, if someone is really bothered about buying products made through exploited labor, they aren't going to make their purchases based on whether the workers were exploited more in making one product or less in making another product.

That much is true. And as such, my ethics are thoroughly and completely selective -- I choose not to shop at WalMart, but I do buy clothes at more upscale retail outlets that were certainly made by exploited workers. It bothers me, but obviously not enough to stop the practice.

Hence my larger point -- that WalMart in particular isn't really the source of the problem. Rather, WalMart is merely a symptom of a diseased system.

And, more to the point I was originally trying to make, goods made in another country by exploited workers long ago aren't "sanitized" simply because they appear 35 years later as unwanted junk on ebay.

Certainly not "sanitized", and I think I agree with your point in general. But "recycling" such goods does less to create demand for predatory practices than does purchasing them new at rock-bottom, unrealistic prices.

[film_idaho]

Well is all I have to say is my town of 50,000 has 2 of these trash pits :o! My downtown has suffered the most because that’s where most of the specialty boutiques are. Wal-Mart has closed most of them out. And there was a photo shop near one of the Wal-Marts that sold motion picture film, the only one in town (16mm & Super 8 ) but shortly after the Wal-Mart opened they went out of business ! So now I have to buy my film jacked up prices! And if Wal-Mart sold Super 8 there I would look for film somewhere else. REALLY!

And if I wasn’t so desperate, I wouldn’t develop my K40 there. (Living in Idaho there is no lab for 1,000’s of miles so I have no choice .)

I hate Wal-Mart, I hate the people that work there, and I hate Sam Walton for running society to be thrifty white trash .

-Alex Mason (teenage Super 8 junkie)

[Evan Kubota]

"I hate Wal-Mart, I hate the people that work there, and I hate Sam Walton for running society to be thrifty white trash ."

Why do you hate the people that work there? Did one of them spank you? I'd argue that society's problems are typified by Wal-Mart customers, not created by them.

[ccortez]

German manual labor is not really different than Japanese manual labor. To imply otherwise is absurd.

I'm not sure what Japanese labor has to do with the exploitation of workers in countries far further down the socioeconomic ladder than Japan.

And to make a statement like the one above w/absolutely no facts or even supporting ideas is worse than absurd.

Historically, German labor has been far more difficult to exploit in every way -- working conditions, wages, working hours, etc. -- than the Chinese labor that our American companies depend on these days.

FWIW, didn't Bauer manufacture some cameras in Malaysia or Thailand? I recall reading that on super8man's website.

Could be. Why don't you go do some research that shows that Bauer exploited said labor to a similar degree that we see from Nike, Kathy Lee, etc.

To the rest of the thread: the point is that Wal-Mart is not the only large corporation.

Ah, but they are the largest. Therefore, some scrutiny is in order. WalMart seems a natural place to begin evaluating the inequities of global capitalism.

The way you write and think reminds me of a freshman in college... completely discard logic in favor of making absurd, unrealistic statements about situations which you know very little about.

Pot, meet kettle. ;-)

[ccortez]

And if I wasn’t so desperate, I wouldn’t develop my K40 there. (Living in Idaho there is no lab for 1,000’s of miles so I have no choice .)

Dwayne's accepts film that you send through the mail. They even send it back to you! They're cool like that. (Hint: there's always a choice.)

[Evan Kubota]

"I'm not sure what Japanese labor has to do with the exploitation of workers in countries far further down the socioeconomic ladder than Japan.

And to make a statement like the one above w/absolutely no facts or even supporting ideas is worse than absurd.

Historically, German labor has been far more difficult to exploit in every way -- working conditions, wages, working hours, etc. -- than the Chinese labor that our American companies depend on these days."

I was referring specifically to your statement that you doubt your Nizo and Bauer were made by exploited labor. This is an implied contrast with other Super 8 cameras, none of which (AFAIK) were made in sweatshops in modern China. The majority of non-European S8 cameras were made in Japan, which is what my statement was based on. So the point stands. How is German labor different than Japanese labor? Countries further down the socioeconomic ladder were by and large not producing S8 cameras, which is what I was referring to. Comparing German labor to modern Chinese labor has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

As for my criticism of Tim - please illustrate where I have made obvious lapses in logic like "I respect workers but I'll fuck up as much shit as I can before I leave the store." Unlike some people, I don't bitch about how much I hate Wal-Mart's brand of capitalism but continue to buy things there or have my film processed through them.

[ccortez]

Countries further down the socioeconomic ladder were by and large not producing S8 cameras, which is what I was referring to. Comparing German labor to modern Chinese labor has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

But wait... I wasn't the one who said S8 cameras were typically made by exploited labor. I don't have any data about that. My point was that comparing the manufacture of German cameras to the Chinese manufacture of modern consumer goods is disengenuous.

To Roger's point, maybe all worker exploitation is equal. Maybe the Japanese workers who made the Canon 1014-XLS were taken advantage of to some degree. Is it to the same degree as Chinese peasants making pennies a day? Does the degree matter? If my company doesn't offer a dental plan, is my labor exploitation comparable to someone working 16 hours a day in a sweatshop for pennies? I'd say no, but I'd listen to the arguments of those who disagree...

To be clear: I know absolutely nothing about the history of Japanese labor policies, so it could certainly be the case that Japanese-manufactured cameras are sullied with the blood, sweat and tears of horribly exploited workers as well.

[Evan Kubota]

"My point was that comparing the manufacture of German cameras to the Chinese manufacture of modern consumer goods is disengenuous."

Definitely, but I never made that comparison. If Roger did, I didn't pick that up from his post. Anyway, I would hazard a guess that the conditions in Germany and Japan in the 60s and 70s were not as harsh as most Chinese factories today. Still, if one is against cheap labor in general, it would probably be best to avoid all manufactured goods, period

[ccortez]

Still, if one is against cheap labor in general, it would probably be best to avoid all manufactured goods, period

Why?

[MovieStuff]

Guys, guys, guys......

We are veering away from the central issue: Walmart isn't unique. There were many "Walmarts" that came before. The "degree" of worker exploitation is a meaningless and dangerous argument because it suddenly validates the idea of selective abuse; that it's essentially okay to buy old cameras off of ebay now because the workers that made them 40 years ago weren't abused "as much" as the workers of today.

That is what I meant when I said this is all silly. As long as any of us buys items (specifically cameras and projectors) made by an exploited worker at any time in history -past or present-, we have zero room to preach about the ethics of Walmart. Capitalizing on the practices of past Walmarts is no different, in my book, than capitalizing on the Walmarts of today.

I think my biggest complaint about Walmart is simply that it's "tacky". Sorry. I know that overlooks much larger social issues here but, frankly, there are tons of things we buy in this world that we would be totally freaked about if we knew how they were really produced. In that respect, I am simply pointing out that some here need to put down the stones they are so eager to cast. ;)

Roger