small format: First Independent Test of Ektachrome 64T

[Juergen]

Cameras: Leicina special (reading 64 ASA, manually set outside camera), Canon 1014 XL-S (64 ASA reading), Nizo S. 128 (40 ASA automatic), Canon 514 XL (40 ASA automatic), cage S715XL-S microcomputer (40 ASA automatic)

Films: 1 Ektachrome 64 t and 1 Kodachrome 40, processed at Dwaynes (k-14movies, Kansas, USA), 1 Kodachrome 40 processed at Kodak (Lausanne). Shots: 1 testing chart black & white Esser (Tungsten) , 1 testing chart Color Esser (Tungsten), 1 wideangle harbour scene sunlight, 1 scene knots of a willow (sunlight).

Question: Do the Kodachrome differ K40 films from Switzerland and from the USA of each other? No visible differences.

Question: How do K40 and E64T differ? Colors and sharpness are nearly similar with both. Colors of E64T are a little bit more saturated. The grain of the E64T is coarser. The frame line is slightly jumping with E64T, no steady picture! There seems to be a problem with the smooth running of the film stock through the cartridges.

Question: Can the E64T handle with 40 ASA automatic cameras? No. The pictures of the Nizo S 128 are obviously overexposed. The Canon delivered in general false-exposed pictures (also with K40), the Bauer a little bit underexposed with K40 which were properly exposed then with the E64T.

More details and pictures in the first issue of small format, the new magazine: http://www.smallformat.de

[Super8SLiCK]

I sure hope the final product won't have more defective carts...

[S8 Booster]

this just confirmed my suspicion that a mag like this is more or less useless only purpose is to read it leisurely beside the fireplace at winter time having a good laugh. your info on the tests raises more (only) questions giving no answers and if the info you posted mirrors the work around the tests you made it is far from comprehensive enough.

a few very valid questions:

basic:
you did apprently not verify the condition of each cam in advance.

.....The frame line is slightly jumping with E64T, no steady picture! There seems to be a problem with the smooth running of the film stock through the cartridges.

can you confirm that the e64t carts tested are made by pro8mm as previously on kodak pre preduction stocks for s8 testing - made from slit 35mm film and prefed by pro8mm and not lubed for motion use? also what is teh film thickness - oh you never measured?

did you verify the speed notch on the cart and if it actually read correctly in each (auto reading) cam?

Question: Can the E64T handle with 40 ASA automatic cameras? No. The pictures of the Nizo S 128 are obviously overexposed.

maybe

The Canon delivered in general false-exposed pictures (also with K40),

definately wrong answer if the cam does not have an error or you made n error through the test by screwing up the setting of the exposure compensation dial.

the Bauer a little bit underexposed with K40 which were properly exposed then with the E64T.
e

obviously the bauer does have n incorrect film speed setting in the first place as it is only 40/160 and if it is correct with the e64t it is due to an error in the exposure setting system. in this case 2 errors become right.

all above comments are based on the assumption that you shot the auto setting cams in auto mode.

also: did you correct for film sensitivity alterations in tungsten mode?

K40 in tungsten mode: IS0 32->Tungsten (3200 K) + Light Balancing
Filter No. 82A
K40 for movie light: ISO 40 -> Movie Light (3400 K) no filter required
None
quite a difference in sensitivity. did you compensate for that or verify the colour balance at all? did you use stabilised 230v power systems for your tungsten? (or was it movie light?) light (230v spot on?) / verify the actual colour balance / adjust the voltage accurately to get a perfect match on colour balance? Since the k40 is so critical on the artificial light source colour balance this is a very valid point.

for the 64t the situation is opposite
Tungsten (3200 K) filter: None - Speed: ISO64
Photolamp (3400 K) filter: 81A - speed: ISO50

now, that was the short list.

s

[Juergen]

Booster, our test with just one cartridge is even more detailed than Kodak did. Kodak tested with 3 cameras - only 64 ASA reading cameras. That was all. We are not a commercial testing institute and we did what we could with just 1 cartridge we have got. The cartridge was send out by Kodak. THEY put the film in 40 ASA reading cartridges. Don't put the blame on us for things that Kodak should do. With one cartridge you cannot do thousands of variants with light balacing filters. That was not our interest. We wanted to see if the existing cameras can work with their existing filters with thsi new film stock. Nothing else.

[jpolzfuss]

this just confirmed my suspicion that a mag like this is more or less useless only purpose is to read it leisurely beside the fireplace at winter time having a good laugh. your info on the tests raises more (only) questions giving no answers and if the info you posted mirrors the work around the tests you made it is far from comprehensive enough. ...

Hi S8 Booster!

a) Your questions/comments are good ones.
b) Some of your questions/comments are answered in the German version. (E.g. they've already noticed that the tests with the "Bauer S715XL microcomputer" have been a waste of time - it's only listed to show what they've done!)
c) The German text say that further tests have to be made and will be made and that further details will only be revealed in the printed magazine ;)

In other words: You can't judge the magazine's quality just because of this small summary.

[pippin]

These are very interesting results. They are the first results I have come across.

The test results are clear.

Ultimately, when I come to test E64 it will be tested against K40 in the same camera (Nikon R10) set at the appropriate speed and in the same outdoor lighting and on the same subject. I will compare the results. My comparison will also be subjective. What matters is what each individual thinks of the results.

The jittery cartridge is very worrying. I seem to recall a post saying that E64 "should be .147mm thick" and that K40 is .145mm thick. Kodak should know if this difference is critical to the running of the cart.

[Rob]

The jittery cartridge is very worrying. I seem to recall a post saying that E64 "should be .147mm thick" and that K40 is .145mm thick. Kodak should know if this difference is critical to the running of the cart.

I 'm sure Kodak will sort the cartridge problem out by the time the film goes into production. It would make no sense to market a product that was, effectively, unusable. For me the most significant thing to emerge from the test is that 64T has coarser grain. The fact is K40 is being replaced by an inferior stock. Could be time to retreat to Standard 8 where K40 will be around for a few years at least.

Rob

[downix]

Right now I'd write up a jittery cart simply to it being a pre-production, so not yet set up properly. After August, then let's worry about jittery carts.

[MovieStuff]

The jittery cartridge is very worrying. I seem to recall a post saying that E64 "should be .147mm thick" and that K40 is .145mm thick. Kodak should know if this difference is critical to the running of the cart.

I 'm sure Kodak will sort the cartridge problem out by the time the film goes into production. It would make no sense to market a product that was, effectively, unusable.

Why would Kodak treat the new E64 any different than their Kodachrome, Tri-X, Plus-X or any other stocks that all seem to have jittery carts? The problem isn't the thickness of the film. I have films from the 70s all shot on various film thicknessess and they are all rock steady. The problem is still in the newer defective carts. They are better than a year or two ago but the problem is still there to a certain degree. None of the modern carts are as steady as the carts from the 60s, 70s and early 80s.

Again, we telecine footage from that era all the time and carts shot on even el-cheapo cameras are obviously more steady than contemporary carts shot on totally refurbished Beaulieus and Nizos and Leicinas. We verify this by doing a registration test where the sprocket holes are visible relative to the frame lines. On older carts, the frame lines are solid but on new carts, the frame lines swell and contract, indicating registration issues with the carts. It is still a problem that needs to be recitified by Kodak. Hopefully you are right that they will fix it because it is annoying as hell.

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

[Carlos 8mm]

Pippin wrote:

The jittery cartridge is very worrying. I seem to recall a post saying that E64 "should be .147mm thick" and that K40 is .145mm thick. Kodak should know if this difference is critical to the running of the cart.

Jeez,
Could that jittering deffect in the carts delay the releasing of Ektachrome 64T in August ? :?

Carlos

[jpolzfuss]

... Kodachrome, Tri-X, Plus-X or any other stocks that all seem to have jittery carts?

Does this problem really still exist? Kodak has risen the prices for Super8 only one to three years ago because they claimed to have replaced their worn out machines for the cartridge-production with new ones!

But: If the new material is thicker, will this affect the "High-Precision Pressure Plate for Super 8"?

[jpolzfuss]

Cameras: Leicina special (reading 64 ASA, manually set outside camera), Canon 1014 XL-S (64 ASA reading), Nizo S. 128 (40 ASA automatic), Canon 514 XL (40 ASA automatic), cage S715XL-S microcomputer (40 ASA automatic)

Hi Jürgen,

have you tested the 64T with the "High-Precision Pressure Plate for Super 8", too? Is is still "jittery"?

[Juergen]

No, we haven't. But there is another test. I think this guy used a plate. Results may be published tomorrow. But a camera should work properly without any special plate, shouldn't it?

[MovieStuff]

... Kodachrome, Tri-X, Plus-X or any other stocks that all seem to have jittery carts?

Does this problem really still exist?

Absolutely.

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

[alan doyle]

hey guys,
don't you know that these cheap outsourced inserts,in the super 8 cartridge.... that are causing most of the problems.....
are part of a rebranding policy for the format..

INTRODUCING KODAK 64t WOBBLY VISION, you too can get that bad grainy home movie look...
with kodaks ongoing faulty cartridge designs, we guarantee to make even the greatest shooter look like an a1 bozo...

but seriously,was anybody really expecting 64t to be as grain free as k40.
more like less grainy than,7240...