Kodak on super 8 issues

[StopMoWorks]

Wow Roger that is amazing ....you getting an opportunity to talk with the Kodak big cheeses!! You seemed very cordial and diplomatic with them which will hopefully encourage them to keep the dialog ongoing. Keep up the efforts Roger! Super 8's survival is on your shoulders now

Some thoughts came up .....

The ECO film would be something that might help bring Super 8 into the digital age .... specifically for transfer, then into computer and outputted to video, dvd's. My concern would be, what labs would specifically process Eco film that's in a Super 8 film cartridge? Roger said .... ANY film lab would process it? Would these labs need certain additional equipment or tools to handle the cartridges? If ECO came out, initially there might be only a few labs to process it and they might charge whatever the market will bear since there might be minimal competition? So I am only speculating that we would not enjoy the current low film processing that is now available with K40 which has been around so long and has a customer base of repeat customers.

I do not know if this is a ridiculous idea. Since Kodak's Switzerland film processing lab is already set-up to handle Super8 film cartridges, maybe through lobbying they would consider re-tooling a little to process ECO and with mailers? How about the same with Dwayne's. If there is only minimal labs that will handle Super 8 cartridged EC0, then what is the point if there is no support for it? Maybe I am ignorant about film labs and others on this forum are likely more knowledgeable about this. I wonder if Kodak is thinking in terms of just replacing K40 with ECO? That is certainly not what many would want.

Also, the cartridge jittery issue is current and very important. I am glad you mentioned that to Kodak. Hopefully, they will do something about it by seriously considering some ideas you offered them. Again, I consider this a humongous step with regards to communicating with the Kodak powers that be . Got to keep the communication doors open with Kodak!

LIO

[S8 Booster]

I'm investigating this. I've emailed Fuji some weeks ago to get an email address where the Petition could be sent; so far no reply.
/Andreas

Do not know if this is still valid but JETRO (Jetro- Japan External Trade Organisation) used to be located with the Japanese Embassy in Oslo and will be helpful to initiate contacts with Japanese companies.

Usually a very efficient door opener.

However, do not expect a quick reply 8)

Moshi Moshi Salt-sq, are you around still? Can you contact Fuji over there?

R

[andy8]

I have to agree with one of the guests (8MAN) comments,if
kodachrome dies then i will give up filming in super 8 and wil only rarely use 16mm neg...long live K25 and K40, though K25 aint got long left....It does make you wonder how long it will be before the kodachrome process is withdrawn..

[DriveIn]

It was nice to hear that someone has (had) the opportunity to talk to seemingly receptive people at kodak about 8mm film (excuse the skepticism). I hope some good comes out of Rogers conference call with the Kodak representatives. It seems all too often a corporate bean counter will make the decision that a small but consistent and long term part of the business does not merit further attention than is necessary simply because it is not considered profitable enough quickly enough or in high enough volume. If it doesn't net a large corporation top dollar in numbers sold and revenue generated, it all too often is thought by some out of touch number crunching corporate executive board that it is time to drop the product and focus on the more profitable (higher volume) sections of the business. That is where I am skeptical about real action or the future of 8mm as we (the customer and end user) would prefer and desire. I will believe it when I see it happen (the improvements and changes for the better, or the retension of existing products that work). I hope that part of Rogers discussion with the Kodak Reps is an aid to help maintain and improve the lower volume product areas of the company that bring customers back for more (or other) products. It's obvious that 8mm will not be the top producer at Kodak, but hopefully someone will have the foresight to see it as a starting block for a foundation of future film users (who would or may become steady long term customers). The technology has held for many years longer than most had probably expected. If Kodak puts some effort into improving the supply, availability, and product line options, (and even some basic low end advertising to explain it exists) it should last well past some newly current technologies. I would jump at the chance of a good film format in 200ft cartridges. But like others have stated, if film like K40 goes away, the whole point of using the stuff for ready made projection goes away as well. Halting K40 without a viable (and comparable) replacement would be a shot in the foot for Kodak. They are already hopping on one sore foot with 8mm from the production cuts they have made in the past. Some things are doomed in their past or present state (like sound film), but I wonder how much is due to a lack of effort at trying to find alternatives to the problem of chemistry, production, and application. Research obviously costs money, but there is always the future outlook of returns due to sales of researched products sold. The other choice is loss of customers by not supporting their needs. There are no returns due to sales when the customer is gone. That goes back to the corporate bean counters not having the foresight to stick to the long term steady customer and going for the fastest highest volume profits. Those customers tend to depart as quickly as they arrive. The quick profits are usually not long term and fade just as fast as they arrived. I hope 8mm (and the larger formats) are here for a long time. Longer than the current technological alternative.

[Lucas Lightfeat]

K40 is a tradition. If it is replaced, I would be very sad indeed, and I think that it is unlikely that there will be an adequate replacement. A more modern stock, with similar grain characteristics would be boring, in my opinion. I would prefer that they just keep producing K40, which I think works OK for telecine. It looks great telecined! It looks great precicely because it doesn't accurately produce the colours and contrast of real life. I am worried and concerned about issuing Kodak any encouragement to replace K40.

Other than that, well done Roger

Lucas

[Guest]

All I've got to say is... THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ROGER

[avortex]

All I've got to say is... THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ROGER

(Ooops! I forgot to log in...)

[MovieStuff]

I am worried and concerned about issuing Kodak any encouragement to replace K40

Well, I wouldn't worry nor be concerned. The reality is that what you or I think about Kodachrome means nothing in the larger picture. If Kodak needs to drop K40, they will do so as illustrated by the demise of Kodachrome 200, one of the most popular and long anticipated still photography stocks around. No encouragement from me, pro or con, is going to make any difference, though I'm flattered you think I have that kind of gain with Eastman. ;)

Kodak is going to do what it has to do, period, and no amount of whining on our parts will change that. Far more K200 was sold than in K40 super 8, so don't think they aren't having to make tough decisions at Eastman.

My whole approach was not to antagonize the Kodachrome issue, which is why I didn't put them on the spot about the future of K40. Neither one of these nice ladies has any more control over the prospects of K40 than you or I do. Instead, I urged them to not leave the super 8 community empty handed IF they have to pull K40 from their product list. Telling them,"Hey, if you don't offer K40 then people will stop shooting super 8 altogether" is not only inaccurate but totally sidesteps the larger issue of what to do when that fateful day comes and K40 is no longer around.

In short, better to encourage them to research a replacement NOW than to pretend there are no potential problems on the horizon and then be left flatfooted. I sure as hell don't want to shoot Ektachrome Type G for the rest of my days, nor do I want to be limited to only B&W stocks for all my projects. Plus, there is a larger issue of processing availability and costs. I mentioned a low con stock like ECO but that wasn't really the only E-6 stock we talked about.

Again, as I mentioned before, they did reveal some information about future stocks for super 8 but I have to respect their wishes and not spill the beans. IF Kodak can find an E-6 fine grain replacement with good projection density, then the greater number of labs that can handle super 8 will go a long way toward perpetuating super 8 into the future.

But, make no mistake here, I was NOT encouraging them to drop K40 at all. On the contrary, I pointed out that K40 is THE most popular stock which is something they already knew based on their sales. And, if Kodak can resolve the labeling problems so people can buy K40 with confidence, then perhaps K40 will see an upsurge in sales and can exist along side whatever E-6 stock they come up with. Nothing wrong with having more choices AND preparing for future contingencies.

Roger

[Lucas Lightfeat]

Hi Roger,

I didn't mean to sound like I was "acusing" you of anything. What you did in contacting them sounds very positive. It seems from what you say, that the abolition of K40 is an inevitability, rather than a possability. Why are you so sure of this? Is it because of the environmental issues?

If I could ask them for any new stock, ironicaly, it would be that now obscelete K200 film you were just speaking of:D

I bet you're loving being the only one here who knows the low down on upcoming stocks, huh? ;) We already know that the Vision 500 is on its way, so it must be a slow finegrain stock, I guess. As we have K40 already, I'll bet it's a slow negative stock - 50T is my guess....Really hope it's not 50D - stupid stock imho

Well done Roger, Dad of the Super8 community

Lucas

[Scotness]

Well Roger I've said it before and I'll say it again - your a legend -thank you and very well done - I'm glad it's you who got the opportunity to talk to them because you know what to say and how to say it.

On the future of K40 though - it is a great stock - and I don't know what the environmantal issues with it are - but if they can't be satisfactorily resolved then I think it should be pulled - what's more important a liveable planet or nice images? I think we have to think long term about this.

That aside, to me the biggest problem with Super 8 is the jittery cartridges - anyone reading this ask your self how you would feel if you shot about 230 rools for a feature film and had almost 50 of them with jitter on it? I personally won't use Super 8 again for any serious application until that is absolutley unequivocably resolved.

It seems at last they're listening to us though - thanks Roger

Scot

[Guest]

Roger,
I don't mean to undermine your credibility or belittle your stature in the film community. It is already obvious that you are quite the heavyweight when it comes to filmmaking. But why would Eastman tell you, a total stranger, about upcoming super 8 film stocks that are supposed to be a top secret as far as the super 8 community is concerned. If they did tell you something factual that is top secret then you must have realy schmoozed them to high heaven. Or possibly they are giving you the run around like they do with so many other callers that express their concern about the future of super 8 film. In your case I am sure that they must have realized that you are not the average caller once you told them a little about yourself, your background and your experience. In such a case they would have realized that they had to pull something a little slicker out of their bag of tricks because they were dealing with a smarter than average caller. I don't mean to be pessimistic but it still smells like an old Kodak fish story to me.

[Scotness]

Oh come on! Read the back story!

Roger was passed on to these people by someone in Kodak he's dealt with before - he wasn't just cold calling. And I imagine it's quite normal that when you meet someone who's opinion you respect and learn from you share something back the other way your self.

I had a similar thing with Kodak here in Brisbane when they were trying to sort out the jitter problem for me - they told me a few things which I can't repeat but certainly something I wasn't expecting to hear. It wasn't anything to do with the future of Super 8 - but my point is it's just a trust element that's all which is easily given under certain circumstances.

Scot

[Pedro]

Very impressing, that Kodak finally talks with their customers!
All topics are very interesting and important, we will see if there will be any results in the future.

My biggest concern is, that there will be a real replacement for Kodachrome stock in the future, when discontinued some day. I don´t think that the mentioned ECO stock is a real repalcement, it is an alternative for those who can afford a print for projection (probably expensive!) or only want to shoot in film for any reasons and than go to electonic media.

I think, when calling it replacement, it should be comparable to K40 regarding color reproduction, contrast, grain and sharpness. Or even comparable to K25. Maybe low speed we have learned to deal with low speed over years, but please, good quality when directly projected! That is important to keep film fascinating and to distinguish it from any video.
The E6 process certainly would be a big "plus", when ever possible to achive the same quality like with Kodachrome.

Besides, there may be a low contrast stock for print and transfere issues, why not, but a contrasty projection stock is neccessary, too, as that is the main idea and main advantage of S8 in general.

The other point is sound film. Why should sound film be so complicated to produce and so negative to environment? The Kodak painting process (direclty onto the film border) is not a must! The 200 ft rolls of K40 and rest K25 Super 8 that are offered in Europe for the Beaulieu SuperDrive, also are availlable with sound track. But this sound track is no painted, but striped by a third party lab, directly onto the unexposed film! Why Kodak cannot do this, too?

Pedro

[MovieStuff]

Roger,
I don't mean to undermine your credibility or belittle your stature in the film community. It is already obvious that you are quite the heavyweight when it comes to filmmaking.

Well, I have been dieting as per doctor's orders but beyond that I don't consider myself anything special within the film community. But thanks for the compliment!

why would Eastman tell you, a total stranger, about upcoming super 8 film stocks that are supposed to be a top secret

1) I am no stranger to Kodak.

2) They called me.

3) The information they shared with me isn't really "top secret" in the classic sense or the word. They just asked me to remain discrete (which discussions like this make harder to honor) because they don't want to make any official annoucement until they decide what to do. I can not and will not say any more. Period.

I don't mean to be pessimistic but it still smells like an old Kodak fish story to me.

If Kodak wanted to yank my chain, why bother setting up a conference call at all? They could have simply ignored me. I was in a teleconference with two of their top executives for an hour. Certainly Kodak has better things to do than cook up "fish stories" that eat valuable man hours of their top brass not to mention a significant long distance bill. Again, THEY set up the conference call and contacted me on Monday. The call was on their nickel, not mine. ;)

Call me foolish but I think they're on the level. I can understand your doubt, but Kodak has way too much on the line with digital hanging over their heads to play the kind of games you suggest. They're looking at anything they can to stimulate and maintain the film market.

Roger

[Paul L.]

Would it be possible for you to have a conference call with them perhaps twice a year? You see a LOT of super8 film pass through your hands, and are active in the super8 community (unlike other transfer facilities)... you're talking with the people who shoot the film on a daily basis. Having someone give Kodak regular feedback would be a great asset.

Thanks for your efforts... I think it's great that Kodak is listening to us.