for all you sound experts ... walkman dat or portable dat?

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ericMartinJarvies
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for all you sound experts ... walkman dat or portable dat?

Post by ericMartinJarvies »

hello :D

ok, i am attempting to put together a sound recording package for use with my beaulieu 4008's. if one had the money(lets say $3k) to put together a sound recording package for filming principal scenes with 1-4 actors, what would it consist of?

shotgun mic(s) - type?
mixer? type?
cables? types?
dat recorder? type(portable or walkman)?
smart slate?? timecode not needed, so what kind of slate?
anything else?

this is assuming the beaulieu cameras have crystal sync and perhaps synchro pilotes. also assuming the final product will be DVD, not film masters. also assuming all film will be telecined, and both visual and audio will be edited on a nle system. final product is digital/DVD ... NOT FILM!!

what equipment configuration will give me audio quality the same as in most major motion pictures(assuming the nle sound mixing is done correctly based on quality recordings made by the above desired package)?

also, what is the differance between a $500. SENNHEISER and a $2,000 SENNHEISER shotgun mic? how many of these mics are needed on a regular 1-4 person scene? do these need ot be fed into a mixer? if so, does a mixer effect sound quality? if so, is there any differance between an inexpensive model and the top of the line model(besides price)? and what type of cables are used between the mic(s) and the mixer(good, medium, and great)?what happens between the mixer and the recorder? just cables? the same type of cables? now then, the recorder, would a walkman DAT record the same quality as a fostex portable DAT? if so, then why use the more expensive? and if all of this audio will be adjusted using a nle, is a portable DAT required? when recording location or set/studio sound, is it simply point mic and record, using a simple walkman dat? or doesone need to use a portable dat to make adjustments and settings? based on what? also, because the final product will be a DVD, and everything will be edited on a nle, is there not a need for a smart slate that would write timecode to the audio track(while the camera simply catches the visual timecode being displayed on the smart slate)? or does the latest audio/video nle software make it easy to match visual with audio, be it needing to strech the video, or stretching the audio, or the reverse for either or? is a dat even needed? can one use a digital recording device that uses its own hard drive? is there any advantage to using a dat tape? 48khz is the quality one records at? or ???

alright, i am certain someone can answer these questions. and again, i thank you for delivering me through my ignorance. peace.
eric martin jarvies
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ericMartinJarvies
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TASCAM Pocket Studio 5 Digital Multitrack New

Post by ericMartinJarvies »

what about these new little digital mixers ... anyone know anything about them?

TASCAM Pocket Studio 5 Digital Multitrack New
ZOOM PS-02 PALMTOP STUDIO
KORG PXR4 Multi-track Digital Recorder

what i really want to know is, what would the sound quality be using a really good, high end shotgun mic(like mentioned in the above thread), pluged into one of these little guys? <p>
or, what about using really good shotgun mics with a good mixer(like the shure portable), and then recording directly into a walkman dat(not a pro portable dat like the fostex pd-4), but those little pocket sized walkman dat recorder/player)?? is a walkman dat going to record the same quality as the pro portable dat, if both are recording at 48khz?<p>
and what about the cables ... are the large audio type cables better then the small cunsumer type cables? what is the deal with the cable and cable sizes?
eric martin jarvies
#7 avenido jarvies
pueblo viejo
cabo san lucas, baja california sur. mexico
cp 23410
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Post by S8 Booster »

What about this one that Cranium (I think) came up with:
I even think there is a special discount now.

Click the link

Image


Incredibly user-friendly. Records to included 128MB flash card with full editing features for an astoundingly low price!

Genuine 16-bit/44.1kHz uncompressed linear sound quality. Battery or included power supply operation with 2-track simultaneous recording and 8-track playback is just the tip of the iceberg. 38 self-illuminating keys, 13 knobs, and 7 smooth-moving faders combined with a 128x64 backlit LCD make it way easier to operate than any other full-featured digital recorder. Onboard guitar distortion, amp modeling, built-in mic, mic modeling, digital reverb and delay section, plus advanced editing and archiving features make stellar demos a breeze. Mastering effect for stereo bus, USB port for WAV transfer to PC, and optical S/PDIF out.

Features:

* Stores to included 128MB flash card
* 16-bit/44.1kHz uncompressed linear sound quality
* 2-track simultaneous recording
* 8-track playback
* Ultra-intuitive interface
* 128x64 backlit dot-matrix LCD
* 38 self-illuminating keys
* Onboard guitar distortion
* Amp modeling
* Mic modeling
* Digital reverb and delay section
* Mastering effect for stereo bus
* Optical S/PDIF out
* USB port for WAV transfer to PC
* 6 AA alkaline cell operation
* Included power supply
* Built-in microphone
* Sophisticated editing/archiving system

High-powered digital recording that doesn't require reading the manual is finally here at a price you can actually swing. It's a no-brainer, DO IT!
R
..tnx for reminding me Michael Lehnert.... or Santo or.... cinematography.com super8 - the forum of Rednex, Wannabees and Pretenders...
crimsonson
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Post by crimsonson »

First, see if renting is better option. Here in NY, a complete sound package can cause $150 a day. A weekend counts a day. And if you rent for a week it counts only as 3 or 4 days.

The more expensive generally the better performer and relevent "pro" features. "Pro" meaning things that makes it easier but not really "life and death."

A $500 Sennheiser vs $2000 Seinheisser often uses different technology. The $2K boom will be more directional. It will pickup less sound that is not at the front of the mic. The more $$$ mic generally is more snesitive, thus longer distance.

I recommend the Senheisser 416 [About $1000]. If not, at least the ME66 [$400]. You should only need 1 boom mic.

Dont forget boom pole, zepplin, cat hair and shotgun mount.


regarding mixer, The more channels you have the more $$$. Having more than 1 or 2 channels allows you to use the other 1 or 2 extra channels as backup, especially if your tape recorded [whatever that may be] supports 4 audio tracks.
Shure FP 33 is a 3 channel mixer that is proven for field recording.

Recorder: that is up to you. If you go with Minidisc make sure it has manual volume gain control or there is no point in using expensive equipment. People have also used their laptops.


Wires: a lot of them and a lot of converters [XLR to phono, phono to mini, mini to RCA, RCA to XLR, etc, etc]. Just in case....


The most import part of all field recording is the SOUNDPERSON. Hire somebody who understands field recording. No equipment in the world will help an inept audio guys.
ericMartinJarvies
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manual volume gain?

Post by ericMartinJarvies »

thanks for your help. ok, let me understand this, if i purchase a small, compact, pocket sized walkman dat(48khz) or a regular standard issue fostex pd-4 dat(48khz, or nagra IV-tape at 48khz), as long as they each have a manual volume gain, the recording will be the same quality?<p>

i simply want to put together a very compact and portable recording package but i do not want to compromise the sound quality(crap in-crap out). if the little walkman portable dat does the same recording in terms of sound quality as it's big brother's(fostex/nagra), then that is fine with me. in fact, i would prefer using a device that does not even have a tape ... just a hard drive or memory sticks ... or even a minidisc walkman(but i think they are only capable of 44khz or less ... but i am not sure). <p>

i will be editing everything digitally, and the final product will be dvd. however, i want to be able to encode dolby or thx sound on my dvd's if possible, so i want to make sure that the audio tracks i have recorded are worthy of such final expectations.<p>

regarding the shotgun mic, it is best to use the battery operated models ... correct? <p>

you mentioned a mixer serves to capture more then one input device at once(mic, 2nd mic, or backup mic). does the mixer have anything to do with the sound quality / the final recorded sound on either tape or dat?<p>

why does all the main productions companies use tape and not digital for their sound recordings? does tape record a better sound quality?
eric martin jarvies
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cabo san lucas, baja california sur. mexico
cp 23410
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crimsonson
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Post by crimsonson »

if i purchase a small, compact, pocket sized walkman dat(48khz) or a regular standard issue fostex pd-4 dat(48khz, or nagra IV-tape at 48khz), as long as they each have a manual volume gain, the recording will be the same quality?
close but not really. Expensive recording devices have sophisticated DSPs [Digital Signal Processor - electronic brains] that filters noise and increases signal. However, with a good mic and a experienced person you can get better sound than an expensive DAT with your little brother operating it :)

it is best to use the battery operated models ... correct?
No - phantom powered mic is used as much as battery powered.

does the mixer have anything to do with the sound quality / the final recorded sound on either tape or dat?
Yes. Anything that is between the recording tape and the mic affects the sound quality. A cheap mixer might be too noisy and the dynamic range [the range between the low and loud sound] is usually smaller than more expensive mixer.

Remember you may want to buy only some of the gear and rent the rest, or rent everything. If you are going to buy - I would buy the mic and rent the mixer.

why does all the main productions companies use tape and not digital for their sound recordings? does tape record a better sound quality?
The same reason many of us prefer film over video - there is an "organic" [or "warmth"] feel that some people think is missing with digital acquisition. Some argue back that can be added later [both in video or audio]. Its up to you.
ericMartinJarvies
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nagra or dat.

Post by ericMartinJarvies »

ok, so indeed the sound depth on tape does not have that jerky, synthisized sound, that is very abrupt. so, what i am hearing is, a recording done on tape(read nagra), and then digitized will sound better then a recording on dat?

now then, what is the deal with stereo recording? i notice that some of the nagras are not stereo. so no matter the mic, one must use a recording device that records stereo ... correct?

the reason i am not going to rent is becasue i live in mexico, and those types of arrangements prove to be to time consuming and expensive. not to mention, i am building my own small studio(20x30 meters x 6 meters tall) and would like to have all my own equipment so i can a. learn, b. record at will on my own time and schedule, and c. have access at a moments notice. i will be filming children .. dvd's that teach both parents and children how to crawl. how to crawl up and down stairs. how to respect the elements like water(respecting water, swimming, holding breath and going under the water, and jumping into the water), fire(open flames and how they hurt if touched, things that are hot but not on fire like a stove or toaster, etc.), earth(gravity, and its implications like slopes or steep grades, throwing things like rocks or feathers, and how they impact or hurt), and air(still need to figure out the subject line for this element). how to learn to use the toilet. how to etc son on and so forth. so, having children as my literal actors, filming will be based on thier schedules more so then mine(cant tell a child when to take a crap). fortunately, i have enough of my own children(5) running around my compound to manage this type of affair.

the reason sound is so important to me is because myself and my children really enjoy watching good, quality dvd titles like baby motzart, wherein the sound is wonderful to listen to especially when it is heard throud our thx/dolby surround sound system/speakers. i want my dvd titles to have that same ability ... when the volume is turned way up, i want it to be super clean and crisp sounding.

so, what would be really cool is if i could have the boomstick and shotgun mic attached to a small carry pack with the mixer and recorder that is easy to grab, carry, and move around ... especially in tight places like the bathroom ... without compromising sound quality.
eric martin jarvies
#7 avenido jarvies
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cabo san lucas, baja california sur. mexico
cp 23410
044 624 141 9661
crimsonson
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Post by crimsonson »

a recording done on tape(read nagra), and then digitized will sound better then a recording on dat?
Not really. Technically both should be very close. The "warmth" & "organic" comment is about subjective idiosyncratic factors and not about technical shortcomings of either format.

what is the deal with stereo recording?
You can do the mix in post. If your NAGRA is not stereo, it might mean you only have one channel instead of multi channel input.
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