Although K40 sound film is really meant for single system sound recording in-camera, is it possible to use this film's sound track for adding sound onto after the film is developed and edited instead? I dont need to do synch sound but capture wild sound and add this to the projected images.
Here's my plan. What I have in mind is to go to a motorcross event and to film some exciting bike racing and action with the camera loaded with sound film. However, the camera will NOT be recording sound as it is filming. Instead, there will be another person recording sound onto a tape recorder or something similar. After the film is developed and edited, the sound will then be added onto the film's sound track via my Elmo ST-180 projector. Will this all work? Additionally, will there be any disruption in the sound playback when the cement splices pass through?
My reasons for doing it this way is that I have heard that super 8 single system sound recording produces lousy sound quality. There are differing opinions on this, I know. I have never recorded sound on film before. Since I only have one sound film (kept in the fridge for the last few years) I thought then that it would be a bit of a waste using it to shoot single system. It would also save me money by not sending it off to get the film sound striped. I have also heard that sound striping the film yourself can involve great frustration, requiring great accuracy in the line up of film and striping machine (I do not have one of these anyway.)
I have some other questions also. Can you recommend a good quality tape recorder (possibly designed for this purpose) that I may be able to get second hand? I am on a very low budget and there is no way that I would be able to afford something like a DAT. I dont think I could afford crystal synch either. I have heard somewhere on another post that audio cassettes play roughly similar to 18 fps speed. I plan to film however, at 24 fps with my camera. Will this be a problem when I am transferring the sound to the film via the projector? Preferably I would like to record the sound close to 24 fps speed for optimum quality. Again, I must point out that this is wild sound so there will be no problems of synching up sound and images. I hope that this should make my job of selecting equipment easier. Would this be true?
Its frustrating too that I only have one sound film to use. Shooting at 24 fps, I only have 2 and a half minutes to shoot a motorcross event with lots of jumps and general action, cutaways etc. Two sound films would be good. I guess i'll just have to be extremely strict with my filming. Choose my shooting angles carefully etc.
I heard that Agfa put soundtracks on all of their super 8 films (including their so called silent films)...a fantastic idea. I dont know why Kodak didnt do the same.
Using sound film for post sound recording?
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MovieStuff
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Re: Using sound film for post sound recording?
Absolutely.Patrick wrote:Although K40 sound film is really meant for single system sound recording in-camera, is it possible to use this film's sound track for adding sound onto after the film is developed and edited instead?
Patrick wrote:My reasons for doing it this way is that I have heard that super 8 single system sound recording produces lousy sound quality.
Actually, depending on the camera, sound film can produce splendid results. In fact, for the type of sounds you want to capture (motorcycles, etc) I would say super 8 sound film would work perfectly. The only real problem (if any) with super 8 sound cameras is when producing higher frequency sounds or sounds with harmonics (I think that's the correct term). In general, I would not use single system sound to record, say, a piano recital. However, for voice or motorcycles and the such I really don't think you'd see an appreciable difference if you used a separate recorder and then transferred that sound over to the projector. Again, it depends on what type of camera you have (and projector, I suppose!), so this may not be universally true but, based on my experience in the past with an Elmo 1012XLS, I found the sound quality to be just excellent for about 99% of general synch sound applications.
Why not run a test with some outdated sound film? Assuming you an find some, you could shoot it and never even bother processing it. Just rip it from the cart and listen to it on your projector. Also, why not record on both your sound film and on your recorder at the same time when shooting the event? Never hurts to have a back up soundtrack and you could get the sound from two different vantage points. That way, you can choose which works best for your project. In short, it would seem a waste to have a priceless roll of good sound film and not use it for its intended purpose. If the sound sucks, then use the sound from the separate recorder. Either way, you can'l lose!
Roger
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Patrick
Very good points, Moviestuff. However, when shooting motorcross in single system sound, there will obviuosly be a noticeable cut in the sound every time the camera stops and starts again. I think that this is going to be quite disruptive. eg. - brmrmmm / brmmrmmrmm / brmmmmmm - see what I mean. Double system sound will allow the sound to flow without interruption throughout the film over the film cuts. Any tips on finding suitable equipment for sound recording and the problems of different speeds associated with sound recording and filming.
Kodachrome sound
I recommend that you give the single system sound a chance. I've gotten great results from Kodachrome sound in the past. I think the motorcycles will sound fine. Why don't you record the sound using both methods? If you like the single system sound, then you're set because it's in sync. If you don't like it, it will be more work to dub it, but at least you have the choice. I think you'll be satisfied with the sound stripe results. I also used an Elmo 1012 and it sounded fine.
The question is, do you have the sound-striped film already?
The question is, do you have the sound-striped film already?
SHOOT FILM!
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Guest
I am doing this for many years:
When K40S still was available, it was far to expensive for me to use it all the time. So I used K40 silent and a separate tape deck, striped the EDITED film afterwards and made the complete sound track in the projector, taking advantage of both sound stripes ("duoplay").
Today I am working the same way, only that the tape deck is synced with the camera and the sound track is worked out on a open reel tape deck prior to transfering the result to sound stripe.
For wild sound shooting, you only let your tape recorder run during the whole couple of scenes you shoot, wihtout switching it off in between the scenes. This way you obtain a continuous background sound.
The camera should be as distant as possible to the microfone and you can shoot K40 silent, without taking care of the sound, shooting as usual.
Then you edit the film as usual, until you are totally satified. Try to produce very thin splices, best with a Bolex splicer and Kodak cement.
Then clean the film and stripe it or let it stipe in a lab with stereo stripe.
Now you load it into the sound projector (best a duoplay or stereo version) and record your tape sound to the places where you want to. You need not combine exactly the sound which had been recorded for exactly this or that scene, it´s better to have a continuous sound underlayed to a couple of diferent shots. To the second track of the striped film you can record any coments (f.e. a sport reporter, some accelerating music...) without affecting the recodings done on the first stripe. During projection, both stripes will be mixed in the amplifyer.
The sound quality can be really stunning and fulfill HiFi DIN 45000 for stereo equipment, when all parameters are o.k.: Clean sound heads, clean capstan and pitch roller, manual recording gain, set close to 0 dB.
I would only shoot with 24 fps to get better sport shots and a professional sound quality with less wow and flutter and frequency response up to 13.000 Hz (better than cassette tape). The sound is clear and transparent, very similar to the sound produced by open-reel tape decks.
And, I actually recorded piano solo sound tracks with 24 fps, it works and sounds great.
If the splices are of good quality (not thicker than the film is), they keep unhearable. Thick splices result drop outs in sound.
For recording sound during shooting, I would recommend the Sony WM-D6C proffessional walkman. It´s rather cheap at ebay, but also available NEW from Sony. It´s mainly used by reporters.
Pedro
When K40S still was available, it was far to expensive for me to use it all the time. So I used K40 silent and a separate tape deck, striped the EDITED film afterwards and made the complete sound track in the projector, taking advantage of both sound stripes ("duoplay").
Today I am working the same way, only that the tape deck is synced with the camera and the sound track is worked out on a open reel tape deck prior to transfering the result to sound stripe.
For wild sound shooting, you only let your tape recorder run during the whole couple of scenes you shoot, wihtout switching it off in between the scenes. This way you obtain a continuous background sound.
The camera should be as distant as possible to the microfone and you can shoot K40 silent, without taking care of the sound, shooting as usual.
Then you edit the film as usual, until you are totally satified. Try to produce very thin splices, best with a Bolex splicer and Kodak cement.
Then clean the film and stripe it or let it stipe in a lab with stereo stripe.
Now you load it into the sound projector (best a duoplay or stereo version) and record your tape sound to the places where you want to. You need not combine exactly the sound which had been recorded for exactly this or that scene, it´s better to have a continuous sound underlayed to a couple of diferent shots. To the second track of the striped film you can record any coments (f.e. a sport reporter, some accelerating music...) without affecting the recodings done on the first stripe. During projection, both stripes will be mixed in the amplifyer.
The sound quality can be really stunning and fulfill HiFi DIN 45000 for stereo equipment, when all parameters are o.k.: Clean sound heads, clean capstan and pitch roller, manual recording gain, set close to 0 dB.
I would only shoot with 24 fps to get better sport shots and a professional sound quality with less wow and flutter and frequency response up to 13.000 Hz (better than cassette tape). The sound is clear and transparent, very similar to the sound produced by open-reel tape decks.
And, I actually recorded piano solo sound tracks with 24 fps, it works and sounds great.
If the splices are of good quality (not thicker than the film is), they keep unhearable. Thick splices result drop outs in sound.
For recording sound during shooting, I would recommend the Sony WM-D6C proffessional walkman. It´s rather cheap at ebay, but also available NEW from Sony. It´s mainly used by reporters.
Pedro
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Patrick
Pedro, I agree. That sounds like a very logical way of recording double system sound with super 8. However, if I chose to go wth my original plan and use the film that has already got its own sound stripe inside the cartridge, I would unfortunately be ending up splicing the film with the stripe already in place. Would this cause the sound to be disrupted? Like I tried to explain on another thread, I DO NOT want sound cuts. I want continous uninterrupted sound. Is this still possible when cutting film that already has a stripe on it? Obviously, the stripe wil be cut along with the film. The sound of motorcross racing will then be added onto after these cuts to the film and the stripe.
This professional Sony walkman sounds interesting. Is the speed of the the tape recording roughly similar to 24 fps film speed?
This professional Sony walkman sounds interesting. Is the speed of the the tape recording roughly similar to 24 fps film speed?
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Patrick
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Guest
Hi Patrick,
I don´t know how to get K40 sound cardriges (pre-striped), but if you have any and want to use them, I can tell you my expieriences I made when working with this stock:
The camera records any sound captured with the connected mic to the main track. Anytime, when you start a new scene, there will be a cut in the sound, too, just like video shooting. You must switch on the camera electronics a little bit before shooting, to let the ALC control the correct recording gain, in order to avoid any "blub" noises duing scene start.
For editing this kind of single system footage, you must consider, that the sound recorded is always 18 frames away from the picture. So, when you cut between two scenes, the sound will change only 0,7..1 second after.
This you can correct during sound editing in the projector. You partly erase wrong sound, that not combines with the scenes around your splices.
Splicing pre-striped sound film must be done very carefully, for not destroying the sound tracks. Destroyed sound tracks result in drop outs and cannot be repaired, only by repeating the splice.
For sound editing, you have two possibilities:
1 - Editing only on the main track.
your projector must have the "dubbing" option. This is a knob, that determines how intensitive any new recording on the existing sound track will be performed. This way, you first can erase or reduce "wrong" sound around the splices or anywhere, where the sound track is interrupted by camera start and stop. Then you can record new sound (music, comment, atmospere sound and noise) OVER the existing camera sound track; the camera sound track will be erased only partly, the percentage of erasing and substituting with new sound, you determin by the position of the dubbing knob (or "trick" knob).
2 - Better is duoplay editing (duoplay/multiplay projector required)
Here, you leave your camera sound track as it is, only erase or reduce faulty sound around the splices. Any editing, you make on the second track, without touching the first one anymore. Hearable sound cuts on the original track you can overlay with continuous recorded walkman sound , you transfer to the second track. However, to each track you can apply the above described dubbing. I always recorded the atmospere sound with a walkman, in addition to the camera sound and mixed it together afterwards.
The Sony WM-D6C walkman records at standard cassette tape speed to standard cassette tapes. But the motor is crystal stabilized and the audio performance with Dolby C is really outstanding. Absolutly no hiss, wow and flutter, good enough for any further use. There are good reasons, why this device is so beloved by reporters!
Pedro
I don´t know how to get K40 sound cardriges (pre-striped), but if you have any and want to use them, I can tell you my expieriences I made when working with this stock:
The camera records any sound captured with the connected mic to the main track. Anytime, when you start a new scene, there will be a cut in the sound, too, just like video shooting. You must switch on the camera electronics a little bit before shooting, to let the ALC control the correct recording gain, in order to avoid any "blub" noises duing scene start.
For editing this kind of single system footage, you must consider, that the sound recorded is always 18 frames away from the picture. So, when you cut between two scenes, the sound will change only 0,7..1 second after.
This you can correct during sound editing in the projector. You partly erase wrong sound, that not combines with the scenes around your splices.
Splicing pre-striped sound film must be done very carefully, for not destroying the sound tracks. Destroyed sound tracks result in drop outs and cannot be repaired, only by repeating the splice.
For sound editing, you have two possibilities:
1 - Editing only on the main track.
your projector must have the "dubbing" option. This is a knob, that determines how intensitive any new recording on the existing sound track will be performed. This way, you first can erase or reduce "wrong" sound around the splices or anywhere, where the sound track is interrupted by camera start and stop. Then you can record new sound (music, comment, atmospere sound and noise) OVER the existing camera sound track; the camera sound track will be erased only partly, the percentage of erasing and substituting with new sound, you determin by the position of the dubbing knob (or "trick" knob).
2 - Better is duoplay editing (duoplay/multiplay projector required)
Here, you leave your camera sound track as it is, only erase or reduce faulty sound around the splices. Any editing, you make on the second track, without touching the first one anymore. Hearable sound cuts on the original track you can overlay with continuous recorded walkman sound , you transfer to the second track. However, to each track you can apply the above described dubbing. I always recorded the atmospere sound with a walkman, in addition to the camera sound and mixed it together afterwards.
The Sony WM-D6C walkman records at standard cassette tape speed to standard cassette tapes. But the motor is crystal stabilized and the audio performance with Dolby C is really outstanding. Absolutly no hiss, wow and flutter, good enough for any further use. There are good reasons, why this device is so beloved by reporters!
Pedro