Newbie : Why Super 8?

[Taqi]

As far as I am aware they take M mount lenses and had 2 lenses specially designed for them... not sure how wide you can go but then I don't know much about them... do a search on this forum for Leicina and you will find loads of info...

eg viewtopic.php?t=8255

[snaggs]

I now understand why you guys are so upset at the loss of K40. Do you think theres any chance of them changing there minds? My local still minilab has about 20 x K40 cartridges on the shelf.

If the loss of Kodachrome going to seriously damage the format?

Daniel.

[MovieStuff]

Had a look at the workprinter... dont like the idea of just filming a projected image.

Hi, Dan!

I make the WorkPrinter and Sniper series and it is apparent that you do not understand how the system works. For starters, you are not just video taping a projected image. There is no screen. Instead, your video camera is viewing back through the optical path directly at the film surface. Another way to look at it is that you are projecting an image directly on the CCD of the camera. So your video camera acts as the scanner head and the better the camera, the better the image. The WorkPrinter units will offer up a higher resolution image than any standard broadcast camera can resolve so you are limited only by the quality of the video camera that you use. That is why the WorkPrinter units are so popular. They are inexpensive, simple, maintain total frame discretion and are scalable because you can start with a cheap camera and then, when you can afford it, move on to a better camera. But, above all else, you are not just "filming a projected image". The results can be very, very good if used properly.

See the PC Magazine article found here:

http://www.moviestuff.tv/whats_new.html

Sure it might be slow, but surely someone else out there is perfectionist enough to scan their Super8 in a coolscan?

Remember, there are over 3,600 frames in 2.5 minutes of Super 8. That's a whole lotta frames to deal with. More to the point, using a film scanner does not side step the issue of using a CCD to create the image since all film scanners use the cheapest black and white CCD they can get away with! (that's why they are so slow, because they have to channel the color) If working at video resolution then a cheap, used broadcast 700+ line 3 chip camera for telecine work is still going to be far more efficient, timewise, and more than adequate, resolution and color wise, than slowing moving film past something like a Coolscan for weeks on end. The idea of using a film scanner modified for S8 is always fun to think about though, since the color can be really nice, but there are a multitude of problems that currently make it impractical. That's why there are WorkPrinters and Snipers!

Feel free to contact me off-list if you would like to learn more about how they really operate. We also offer a free test transfer.

Roger
http://www.moviestuff

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

Had a look at the workprinter... dont like the idea of just filming a projected image. Sure it might be slow, but surely someone else out there is perfectionist enough to scan their Super8 in a coolscan?

Daniel.

Those who are perfectionists buy a FlashScan8, if they can afford it.....

[ccortez]

Those who are perfectionists buy a FlashScan8, if they can afford it.....

show us some clips. prove it.

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

When I find the time, I have a huge order I promised for a 50th wedding anniversary, I have to get it ready first.

Also I´d like to have some good footage to show, I transferred a lot of nice films yesterday for a good client who lets me use clips on my website from them! They are actually shot with my 4008 ZM II, I bought it from him.

He has about 4000 meters of film! 8O I have about 800 meters left to transfer I think (he sends them in smaller quantities).

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

By the way, Mattias could post some images or a clip if he wants to, on tuesday he will receive the V200 T (the old Vision stock, not V2) I scanned for him, the results are MUCH better now, it turned out to a be an automatic thingy that should have been turned off while scanning negative reels that wasn´t, MWA´s fault, it should have beed programmed by them!

I wasted a lot of time to find that out!

[ccortez]

got bored :oops:

happens to everybody.

What on earth are you going to put on this FAQ, how it’s better than miniDV with its access to NLEs??? Are you going to talk about the new HDV and Panasonic video cameras?

i never claimed anything about "better" (or otherwise), and that won't be the point of the FAQ. but the FAQ should introduce the "why" question, and as you have seen here (and in countless other threads) there are many, many excellent reasons why to shoot S8.

Do you transfer to video?

of course. i have a Workprinter XP for Super 8 and am looking to buy a 16mm WP in the near future. the ability to use film as an origination medium and digital as an editing, compositing, publishing, etc. medium is one of the great "why's". hell, i don't even own a projector. (not exactly true, i have a mostly broken eiki 16mm projector.)

-The film and development cost are about $24 for 3 mins. Ridiculous cost.

More than that in many cases. But why is that ridiculous? Any idea what I pay for developing and printing a roll of medium format still film? But it's not a deterrent, as there's no digital equivalent, period.

-Resolution tap out at about 650-700 lines, I've seen super 8 test screen and that’s where it’s at.

That's my understanding, though with a proper DI process S8 blows up to larger formats MUCH nicer than miniDV (at a similar resolution) b/c of the grain structure.

-No equipment is currently made, all leftovers from the 70's, it was abandon 30 years ago.

Sure. It was all made back when manufacturing quality still existed. Is there anything made today with the precision engineering of a Bolex H-16? With the permanence of a B&H Filmo 70? My swiss watch is entirely mechanical. I doubt modern engineering offers any improvements to its design or functionality.

Examples: I bought a toaster several months ago. Worked fine for 6 months. Now it's a piece of shit, doesn't toast my bread w/o several tries. I could go get a stainless steel GE toaster from the 50s that would outperform anything you could buy at Target until nuclear holocaust makes toast obsolete.

My mom recently had an old VCR repaired for $60. She could have bought a new one for $60. But the repair shop correctly told her that her repaired old magnavox would long outlast the pieces of shit they're making these days.

Planned obsolescence and a pathological focus on the cheapest labor and parts means I'm much happier with the old junk I buy on ebay than I am with even expensive gadgets I buy today.

-The cartridge has bad registration.

Some do. So shoot R8. Or use a framemaster. Or use deshaker in post. Or quite complaining and come up with your own solution. ;)

I've shot over 100 S8 carts since I started working in the medium and haven't seen any more frame-jumpiness or reg problems than I would expect from any other gauge. S8 problems just show up more b/c of the frame size.

-Doing sound can get expensive and complex- sound cart no longer made.

Sorry to break it to you, but "doing sound" (do you mean sync dialog?) is always expensive and complex, no matter the gauge/format. You think it's easy in digital? See how far you get manipulating in post the crapola sound you get from an onboard miniDV mic/recording. Get a drop out b/c an actor got a little loud and need to redub and match? Good luck. Need to slow something down? Digital sound doesn't have the resolution.

-Films have gotten national play that were total done on DV,

Name one.

when was the last time you saw an entire movie shot on super 8.

Last time I watched my DVD of "Sleep Always" or "In My Image". I shot an entire movie on super 8 myself recently. It was a short movie, but a movie nonetheless.

-Its highest resolution film is going away!

Maybe K40 is the lowest grain S8 film, but I prefer the sharpness and contrast characteristics of almost any other stock. K40 was my least favorite of all the available S8 stocks.

DV and super 8 are comparable in resolution, and that's the truth.

That may be the truth, but it's almost completely devoid of meaning.

There is no technical argument, do cost accessments, shooting super 8 makes no sense, other than you feel like, unless you shoot film loops for raves .

That's such an overreaching, absurdly broad statement that I'll let what I said above speak for itself.

Are we having fun yet?

:roll: :lol: 8)

[npcoombs]

The most patently laughable digital development of late has been HDV: recording high-res onto MiniDv in MPEG2. The amount of amateurs running about thinking utopia has finally arrived is hilarious. Shame when they realise that an MPEG 2 encoded originating format cannot be altered in post without exposing all those massive compression blotches.

Additionally, gamma curve shifts in post are what allows for simulation of different stocks or push/pull processing. These too are rendered impossible by such a heavily encrypted originating format. Basically they need to be content to exposure perfectly and have a linear (flat) digital image. No grading possible.

The problem is that these fools will profoundly effect the prospects for 16mm an 35mm as they spend day and night evangelizing on the internet about the superiority and inevitability of their format. They will shun film, and although these kinds of people are probably not destined to ever be important filmmakers anyway the loss of trade through their conversion to digital is marginalizing film.

It is simply the same story as people running about with 500g plastic fuji digital cameras impressed that it claims to shoot at 6 megapixels when it has the lens the size of a fingernail and the owners have never ever heard of a tripod. Never mind the disappointment that even on a slightly cloudy day their pictures turn out blurry.

[sonickel]

Why I shoot super 8:

For me, it's not for nostalgia value. I grew up in the age of VHS video, and assumed that all films were made on video cameras. However, I was always perplexed by how terrible the footage my friends shot looked, and how did movies look better? When I decided to experiment with filmmaking as a mode of self-expression, I was going to save up for a DV camera, because I thought that was my only choice.

I'd never seen or heard of super 8, until I went along to a seminar on Super 8, run by the local Media Resource Centre. The presenter carried on about how difficult and fiddly it was, how long it took to get film back from Switzerland, and how video was much easier, but this only got me interested in the format. Then he showed us some films he made as a teenager, on Super 8 K40. I fell in love.... with the richness of colour, film grain, depth, and atmosphere. I'd found what I'd been hankering for when watching so many crappy videos.

Even though learning about Reel Film and photography has been a very steep learning curve, slowing me down a lot (I would have learned quicker on video and produced a "film" by now) I still think it's worth it. When I do finally get it all together, the results will be awesome, I'm sure.

[flyingsquirrelsnake]

I completely agree with you, sonickel, and can relate to your story. I grew up on VHS and TV, only to see my first actual film a few years ago. My mom had, in her old cedar chest, a 25ft. R8 film shot on Kodachrome of her. It was shot in 1948. After finally tracking down a projector to watch it, I was amazed at how -perfect- it looked after over 50 years and couldn't turn away from such a beautiful creation. I now invest a very large portion of my weekly pay on film in any shape or form. I've been on S8 for a little over a year; my K3 should be arriving any day. All this has inspired me to take film and cinema much more serioulsy and technically than my old VHS cam --->:evil:<--- could ever help me towards. It is just plain motivating for me!

[rmichel]

More than that in many cases. But why is that ridiculous? Any idea what I pay for developing and printing a roll of medium format still film? But it's not a deterrent, as there's no digital equivalent, period.

Ok, expensive is a better word.

By "Out Tech" I mean digital video just over reaches film in so many way. I'm speaking of the camera but Compositing tools, plug-in, NLE...etc.

Examples: I bought a toaster several months ago. Worked fine for 6 months. Now it's a piece of shit, doesn't toast my bread w/o several tries. I could go get a stainless steel GE toaster from the 50s that would outperform anything you could buy at Target until nuclear holocaust makes toast obsolete.

I never said anything about lack of quality, I own two beaulieu and a nizo, they all work, but unlike your toaster, I can't go to Target and get a new camera. If it breaks, I have to send it to sweden!

Sorry to break it to you, but "doing sound" (do you mean sync dialog?) is always expensive and complex, no matter the gauge/format. You think it's easy in digital? See how far you get manipulating in post the crapola sound you get from an onboard miniDV mic/recording. Get a drop out b/c an actor got a little loud and need to redub and match? Good luck. Need to slow something down? Digital sound doesn't have the resolution.

Look, again you miss the point. Yes, the omni mics on most camcorders are shit but why assume that the sound will be record to the camera, maybe it will be record to a minidisc, etc... The point is that it will be in sync. Doing this in super8 requiring finding B7008

rmichel wrote:

-Films have gotten national play that were total done on DV,


Name one.

I can name two:
"Dogville", with Nicole Kidman
and "28 Days" shot with a Canon XL1


Again the appeal in super 8 I find is not quantitative but I just find that somethings look best shot in this type of film. Plus, there's the entire, girls love film guys and hate video techies thing...

[MovieStuff]

Plus, there's the entire, girls love film guys and hate video techies thing...

Damn Kodak, anyway. Glad I'm married. It was hard enough getting a date when I was a manly film maker. You single guys better hitch up with someone soon before Kodak ends all film and you start reeking of digital phermones and have to live the rest of your lives alone. Just you and your equipment, never knowing the touch of a woman. Oh, wait a minute.... that's what we do now!!!!! 8O

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

[tlatosmd]

*imagines lecherous camera fondling* :lol:

[sonickel]

As for the whole women loving film techie men, does it work the other way around???? (ie men loving film techie women?)

Inquiring minds need to know.... :oops: