64T: "seperating the men from the boys"

Post by **Evan Kubota** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:49 am

"Many will move to video, turning the "declining market" into a self fulfilling prophecy."

The thing is Kodak doesn't even seem to care. It doesn't make any sense to kill your best selling stock if you want to preserve the format in the long run. Kodak is too obsessed with maximizing short term profits - they assume that by eliminating some of the costs associated with Kodachrome the same user base will provide a guaranteed market for the new, more expensive E64 film. This isn't the case at all. The extreme rise in processing prices caused by the new film is going to drive a lot of casual users away, and even the more committed ones who can't afford $35 for one cart, developed (me).

A less shortsighted company would work towards cutting costs, but avoid discontinuing their most popular, most economical film stock.

If, somehow, Kodachrome is currently priced with too small of a profit margin, by all means, Kodak, raise the price to $14 or so for orders or 5 or more. Seriously. This way everyone still saves money over the developed cost of E64 ($35 vs. approximately $20), K40 is still available, and the existing user base can be maintained while increasing profits.

The way to revitalize Super 8 is not to kill its most familiar and popular stock - the interest is growing day by day. You just have to keep K40 available long enough for people to be drawn in by the allure of shooting on real film at an economical price. I didn't even think of using S8 for my own productions until a few months ago, and I've purchased 22 carts of film since then. The availability of miniDV cameras and nonlinear editing has completely reshaped the workflow for using S8. It's now much more viable to shoot on film, transfer to video, and edit on the computer. It's foolish to dump the core product just when its popularity is on the rise.

Post by **mattias** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:29 am

Evan Kubota wrote:I fail to see how *taking away* a stock can be seen as "good" or "a step in the right direction"

try again. it's not really that complicated. hint: volume and competition.

/matt

Post by **T-Scan** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:46 am

The thing is Kodak doesn't even seem to care. It doesn't make any sense to kill your best selling stock if you want to preserve the format in the long run.

64T will look and perform better than K-40. It will sell better too. where i'm from K-40 sells the least in stores that stock super 8, and the film center as well because it's a pain to have processed. Tri X and Plus X sell here a lot more because more labs offer processing, or people process it themselves. the case will be the same with E-6 films. Super 8 does not still exist because of those stinking pre paid mailers.. besides Dwayne's just announced they will process S-8 E6 and more will follow.. the price will come down and the chance of prepaid processing has not been ruled out. the K-14 process for K-40 is about as toxic as a meth lab, E-6 can go down the sink.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:51 am

Actor wrote: Price IS an issue.

It will not separate the men from the boys. It will separate the rich from the poor, the truly committed (or commitable) from the enthusiast.

Men are allways *rich*. - I think.... 8)

The bawls they donÃ‚Â´t have they can buy - allways.

T

Post by **Freya** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:59 am

Just a tiny note to point out that women and girls are allowed to buy film too, at least where I live. ;)

love

Freya

Post by **ultramarine** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:04 am

64T will look and perform better than K-40. It will sell better too.

I seriously doubt both!
What noone seems to understand is that price IS THE MOST singificant factor for the most of us home movie makers.
We all know that amateur (home movie) super 8 users are by far more than the pro (filmakers) super 8 users...
Isn't it true that sales of K40 represent a 60-70% of all Kodak's super8 stocks? IT IS! Why? Don't you see? It's the price! K40 has disadvantages BUT SELLS!
Did any of the stocks Kodak anounced all these years sell better than K40? NO!
So, there is no reason that this will happen now, and it won't happen for sure. 35$ (more if you include postage costs etc) is way to far...
Convince a kid to use super 8 for shooting. Just tell him that he needs 35$ for 2.5 minutes! We had problems to convince them with costs <20$.
Now it's all lost...Super 8 will die (SOONER!) and Kodak doesn't give a damn...

Post by **S8 Booster** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:11 am

Freya wrote:Just a tiny note to point out that women and girls are allowed to buy film too, at least where I live. ;)

love

Freya

Yup but you are much smarter than us....

We (them) thinks everything can be bought for money - which to a certain extent is true

T

Post by **marc** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:14 pm

Freya wrote:Just a tiny note to point out that women and girls are allowed to buy film too, at least where I live. ;)

love

Freya

YOU GO GIRL!

Post by **marc** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:15 pm

I don't see how this can seperate the men from the boys when Kodachrome is less forgiving.

Post by **Angus** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:52 pm

Rich wrote:
Evan Kubota wrote:"The updated Super 8 portfolio will seperate the men from the boys."

Again, no, I don't see that it will. It might drive people to 16mm, or it might make some people stop shooting S8, but that's because the processing is going to become far more expensive. It might separate the rich man from the poor man, but that's about it. I fail to see how *taking away* a stock can be seen as "good" or "a step in the right direction" by any true enthusiast. If they just added E64, great, but there seems to be a prevailing opinion that taking K40 away will somehow advance S8 as a format. That's bullshit.
Amen.

Ditto.

Some of us actually LIKE the way K40 looks.

lest we forget, many of the people today saying that Kodachrome isn't too hot are the same people who a couple of years ago were crying out for K25 in super 8.....

If YOU don't use K40 that's fine....don't do the happy dance when they take it away because there's a heck of a lot of us who enjoy it.

I am yet to use the neg stocks but I wouldn't be saying it is a positive move for super 8 if any of them were axed. For my money the more stocks we have the better, an E6 colour reversal is a great idea but killing off K40 at the same time is not.

Post by **Cine_Monkey** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:07 pm

I agree completly with the last 2 posts , From reading the forum there just seems to be a prevailing attitude that "oh well you home movie makers are out now - us big boy professionals have it all".
Retracting K40 is bad as its one less film for us.
Personally i am a home movie maker that loves to make 5 min films, and K40 was ideal, cheap and served my needs. No I really see myself not continuing because of the high costs. Here in England its gonna cost what? Ã‚Â£20 at least to shoot and dev one film, which to me, i just cannot justify. Im really sad, and will not be using my mini DV in the same was as i did my cine camera.
Lets just be nice eh? Were all one community who love super 8, there seems to be some real bitchin going on here!

Post by **mattias** » Fri May 13, 2005 1:36 pm

but you don't *know* that 64t will be that expensive. if the volume of e6 stocks being shot gets big enough a lot of labs should pop up and if all of them would get a steady supply of carts to develop i'm sure they could lower the prices. same thing as dwaynes processing for walmart or kodak for $5/roll but $9 if you send in indivudual rolls. i shoot a lot of home movies on super 8 too and i've always loved k40 for the price and convenience, but what we should fight for is affordable process paid 64t in the stores, not the preservation of a stock that's not even very good and takes several weeks and a trip to the other end of the world to process.

/matt

Post by **jean** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:20 pm

Rich wrote:Saying that K40 isn't for serious filmmakers is offensive and untrue. And who says that Super 8 is supposed to be serious anyway? Some people just want an easy way to shoot cool movies they can project in their livingroom, not everyone is a wannabee Hollywood dork.

Rich, you nailed it. Thjis is the nr.1 fun factor of super8, and tzhis is what will be over soon. I doubt very much that the "real" filmmakers will be enough to keep the market alive.

Post by **scott** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:46 pm

I love all the super 8 "pros" hailing the demise of K40...... lol. NEWS FLASH: Pros shoot 35mm or Super16, not super 8. This is an experimental, prosumer, and student format, so let's not go getting all high-and-mighty.

One positive aspect to this is it has prodded me to investigate shooting 35mm, which I probably would have never explored. From my research so far, it can be done for hardly much more than 16mm. Also, it makes your films much more marketable.

I'll still shoot super 8, but I can't see losing K40 as a plus. I hope that I'm wrong, and 64T kicks ass. Experience suggests otherwise.

Scott

Post by **Angus** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:51 pm

For a lot of us shooting super 8, it is the only choice we have if we want to use film. 16mm is simply too expensive for me, I've tried it. The stocks work out way too expensive, at least in the UK.

Anyway I don't want bulky equipment, my super 8 cameras are big enough! I want something I can lug around with my still cameras...when I visited Las Vegas a few years ago I carried around a bag (my airline carry-on bag in fact) with two still camera bodies, three lenses and my Elmo Super 110 in it..and a bundle of films. Got some fabulous prints, slides and super 8 film...not really practical with any larger format.

If super 8 disappears or becomes significantly more expensive, us hobbyists aren't going to switch to 16 or 35mm...we're simply going to throw in the towel...and then there will be less people able to wow their friends with real film, I wonder if I've helped any budding film makers by using and showing super 8 at the school where I work? I'm pretty sure I have. Frivilous things like bringing a cam into work and shooting off some reels will become a thing of the past.