PRO8MM FILM RIPOFF!!!

[DrkAngl]

I bought some of that Pro8mm 5245 neg film CRAP from those bastards at Pro8. After having telecine done at their overpriced facility (my mistake) I found that my picture had a strong orange cast. It was also quite dirty by professional standards.

They tried to blame me for putting in an 85 filter on their daylight film, but I know without doubt that I DID NOT have the filter engaged. I also found that some of the 250 (5246) super 8 daylight film I used seemed to be OK aside from the dirt and scratches – which only proves my point.

At the time I was assured by the sales staff that the film was new and recently packaged. HOWEVER, I later learned from a reliable source that they in fact DO NOT use new film in the remanufacturing process of their super 8 films. They actually use old, re-caned 35mm short ends. This is essentially left over film from location shoots with no way to know how it was treated or how old it may be! And, to top it off, they keep it unrefrigerated in a back room for months before it is converted to super 8! Just another way for Pro8 to squeeze struggling filmmakers for more profits!

After speaking with Kodak, I found out the 5245 is one of their more unstable stocks. It has a tendency to lose its blue with extreme age. And, guess what the resulting color is when blue is removed? ORANGE!!!

I write this as a warning to any filmmakers who are tempted to use Pro8mm for any reason. Do not let Phil, the owner, persuade you that he is going to work wonders for you and your production! He only wants to scam you for what you have in your bank account and then leave you with nothing when he is done! Pro8mm greed is the only true motivation behind their demeanor.

Since then, I have looked for other places to buy NEW super 8 negative stocks that also offer processing and telecine at better prices. I found that Kodak makes a variety of Vision 2 negative films to accommodate my basic needs. I also found two other companies that offer it with processing in my area (L.A., CA). Both Yale Labs and Spectra Film and Video are reliable sources who supply these services at a discount when you buy the film from them. Of the two, I have issues with Yale due to censorship and higher price. The newer company, Spectra Film and Video, offers processing and film sold together at better prices with no censorship. Have not tried telecine there yet, but, I heard it is pretty good from others.

Does anybody out there know of other places in the US that offer super 8 neg film processing? So far, Spectra is the cheapest at about 13.00 per roll.

[Santo]

I'll break with my usual self-imposed taboo to engage with anyone on a webboard with "angel" in their name, and say:

These are strong words and accusations against Pro8, Terry. Who exactly told you they're using short ends? And couldn't they do a little colour correction to make things more acceptable for your transfer?

Boy I wish those guys at Pro8 would speak up on here once. They get slammed all the time on the internet's #1 super 8 board and never show their faces. The only problem I've had with them is I refuse to pay their 50% overprices, but we've got a lot burned up people on here. Or people who claimed they've been burned. Why don't they defend themselves?

[Super8freakazoid24]

Yeah, I haven't had any problem with them either. My school uses Pro8mm for processing for the Super8 class. My film came out near perfect, but I also refuse to pay their skyrocket prices.

Kev

[lostinspace]

Drkangl,

I know where your comin' from. Pro8mm spells trouble!

I had heard the rumors that they reformatted 35mm film to super 8 using old recanned film stocks. But I never really gave it much thought until I tried some of their Pro8mm color negative stocks for myself.

I'll use some decorum and put it as politely as I can:

A) Almost half the rolls I shot were short between 5-10 feet. I know this for a fact because my Canon 1014 XLS has one of the most accurate film counters on the planet. When I shoot Kodak factory stocks they're dead on.

B) Their cartridges can be prone to jammin' in your camera. Not always, but when they do jam they always seem to jam when yer shootin' yer most elaborate scene! (I'll chalk that one up to "Murphy's Law" tho')

C) Many of their film rolls have very High Density after their developed. I've checked them myself on a densitometer, and their RGB's are usually off the chart!

All of these factors leads me to one conclusion: They're using old, recanned film that they load into their cartridges.

However, I have also been told by an inside source that used to work at Pro8mm, that they do indeed use short ends & recans for their line of custom loaded color negative stocks, and that they use a blind guy to slit & load the stuff. (I guess that's not to bad since that stuff probably has to be done in the dark.)

But hmmm, it does make you wonder, doesn't it?

Lostinspace

[super8man]

They are actually doing the smartest thing possible - NOT to part take in these boards. If they did, they would only do themselves harm in giving credence to anyone who CLAIMS they were wronged.

Face it, the internet holds enough clues for anyone to do a basic search to figure out where they should steer their business/money. Those who don't so the basic research will pay for their mistakes.

Just think of all the folks who have had failed home reno projects and then blamed a big box retailer for their mistakes...should the big box come on and "defend" themselves? Nope... Those that do risk more than just that single customer's bad experience.

No, all businesses dealing with retail customers should avoid these boards like the plague. Sad thing is, many do frequent the boards...to their own detriment once discovered.

Caveat Emptor.

[Nigel]

I got screwed by Pro8 back in 1998 on a music video I was shooting. The director/producer insisted that we use Pro8 due to their "One Stop Shopping" even though we were shotting K40. I bt my lip since I wasn't paying.

Well, neddless to say that the k40 that they did send was out of date!!! Then when I called them they said that all film sales are final and that the stock would be fine. I was pissed and have been railing against them ever since. I filed a complaint with the California Attorney General just ti spite them.

I suggest that you do the same. They are crooks and I will be happy to say so. Lately I have been staying out of the Anti-Pro8 threads but I can't help myself sometimes.

Now, that the board seems to be one of their major ad outlets(Look at the two front page "Articles" written by them) I feel obligated to.

Good Luck

[Santo]

Very good points, super8man.

[Santo]

C) Many of their film rolls have very High Density after their developed. I've checked them myself on a densitometer, and their RGB's are usually off the chart!

...

However, I have also been told by an inside source that used to work at Pro8mm, that they do indeed use short ends & recans for their line of custom loaded color negative stocks, and that they use a blind guy to slit & load the stuff. (I guess that's not to bad since that stuff probably has to be done in the dark.)

Lostinspace

I think somebody who is blind would be perfect for such a job. What a terrific idea!

About the densitometer, I know what it is/does, but how is this an indication that they're using old film stock? Is there something about old film stock that increases the density of emulsion?

[DrkAngl]

Sorry Guys,

I am afraid it’s all true. They buy all their junk stock from "Short Enz". This has been confirmed. Feel free to check for yourselves.

As far as my transfer was concerned, the film had no trace of blue to work with except for an occasional shift. It would have been totally useless at any transfer facility. Even worse, some of my rolls were only 40 feet in length.

Kev, the fact that you have not had a major problem is only due to the "luck of the draw." But, I can assure you that your luck will run out at some point – just as it did with me. You have likely already had some significant inconsistencies in the film that may have been fixed to some extent with color correction. You also may not notice other signs such as increased grain or shift in color as you go to a "new" roll. Ultimately it just means a colorist has to spend more time in a $300.00 per hour telecine suite to fix these problems at your expense. You are really better off obtaining fresh stock from the same batch at a reputable company if you want your film consistent. You will NEVER get this at Pro8mm!

Finally, I ask you at look in Phil’s face and ask him point blank, “Do you use inferior short-ends when you remanufacture your 35mm into super 8? I have heard that you do from a number of sources.” Snake that he is, even he should become somewhat flustered. Perhaps he may even fess up to the truth if you catch him off guard. Try it and see.

[hehateme]

Drkangl & Lostinspace,

No offense, just a word of advice, If you guys do a little research before spending your money you'll find that there are alotta options out there.

You guys are in L.A., so if your like me who doesn't like to ship their film to outta state facilities because of potentially lost film -- especially shipping UPS, they're notorius for losing packages -- then try a coupe of local places like Yale Labs, or this new place called Spectra Film & Video.

However, I must warn you about Yale. They are run by Mormons who have some very, very strict censorship policies in place in regards to nudity, obscenity, sacreligous content, etc., and will not touch your film if it morally offends them.

The other place, Spectra Film & Video, has top quality lab & telecine services with no censorship policy at all for the most part. Their Mini DV xfers are a little over $200 an hour for full scene to scene color correction. Tell them your a first-time customer and they'll throw in a discount also.

Good luck!

Peace in the Middle East,

hehateme

[super8man]

with that endorsement of Yale, I think my credit card information is safe there! Who'd a thunk there was a religious bias? Guess my stuff has been too family oriented for me to notice! Phew.

Now, if only someone would tell me why in& out burger has some JOHN 3:16 or something on the bottom of all of their cups - seriously, take a look sometime.

Cheers,
and be as stingy with your money as a used camera dealer is in making you and offer on your prized camera!

PS - my original post should say PARTAKE, not part take. Ooops.

[Santo]

Now, if only someone would tell me why in& out burger has some JOHN 3:16 or something on the bottom of all of their cups - seriously, take a look sometime.

That's because you live in the U.S. of A.! I love America except for this strange inability to seperate religion from business and state affairs. I don't understand it at all, but, hey, if it works for people down there, good for them.

[sophocle]

ETERNA, REALA and 250D in s8 carts.

If Techincal Pan wasn't discontinued I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a cart as well.

I do not care what the customer service is--pro8 is the last bastion and I am ordering 20 carts of each.

You should do well to order some as well.

[DrkAngl]

Sophocle,

My only thought for you is to say "a fool and his money are soon parted".

And, since you are in the mood to spend money on crap, perhaps I could interest you in a couple of useless reels of orange tinted film from Pro8mm. I'm sure you could make a dog leash out of it or something.

Atleast you will be contented to know that it has equal value to anything Pro8mm can offer you at a much lower price.

I also feel that Pro8mm are far from the last bastions in this industry. As mentioned in this topic above there are plenty of other super 8 sources with better quality and professionalism.

[marc]

I have a theory about those people that claim to have had great experiences with pro 8mm. I think that if Pro 8mm perceives you to be with a big account and not just one of the little guys they give you their best effort. If they think that you are just another one of the little guys they sell you their refuse. This further encourages the little guy not to do business with them which is probably what they want anyway because he probably will be pinching pennies and they would rather have a customer who they can nickel and dime and run up a whole bill of goods without the customer even blinking over it. As an example: Cable release: $30, Empty reusable russian cartridge: $25, etc., etc. I talked to one guy who works in, or owns his own video transfer facility. He does not have the state of the art equipment so he used Pro 8mm for one of his personal projects. He obviously knows enough to talk turkey about this kind of stuff so Pro 8mm knew that they could not mess with him and try to blame errors on him like : " You had your 85B filter in!". He was very happy with their service. I definitely think that there is a lot of deception with regards to those that are green and perceived as ignorant and very eager. Remember, Pro 8mm is a business like any other. When staying afloat is a priority then they will beg, borrow and steal to get the bottom line what it needs to be.