Tranfer experiences with Pro8mm

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Re: not so pro 8...

Post by steve hyde »

reflex wrote:
T-Scan wrote:Front page of living section in local paper this week announces Film Making as the new MBA, says film is a new language thats growing fast nation wide. Something may have to give soon.
Great. This means that every numbskull graduating from University who would previously have disposed of him/herself for a year or two by getting an MBA will now insist on getting a filmmaking MFA.
....not exactly -- the article is more of a commentary on the POWER of visual languge:

March 6, 2005
Is a Cinema Studies Degree the New M.B.A.?
By ELIZABETH VAN NESS

ICK HERBST, now attending Yale Law School, may yet turn out to be the current decade's archetypal film major. Twenty-three years old, he graduated last year from the University of Notre Dame, where he studied filmmaking with no intention of becoming a filmmaker. Rather, he saw his major as a way to learn about power structures and how individuals influence each other.

"People endowed with social power and prestige are able to use film and media images to reinforce their power - we need to look to film to grant power to those who are marginalized or currently not represented," said Mr. Herbst, who envisions a future in the public policy arena. The communal nature of film, he said, has a distinct power to affect large groups, and he expects to use his cinematic skills to do exactly that.

At a time when street gangs warn informers with DVD productions about the fate of "snitches" and both terrorists and their adversaries routinely communicate in elaborately staged videos, it is not altogether surprising that film school - promoted as a shot at an entertainment industry job - is beginning to attract those who believe that cinema isn't so much a profession as the professional language of the future.

Some 600 colleges and universities in the United States offer programs in film studies or related subjects, a number that has grown steadily over the years, even while professional employment opportunities in the film business remain minuscule. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are only about 15,050 jobs for film producers or directors, which means just a few hundred openings, at best, each year.

Given the gap between aspiration and opportunity, film education has often turned out to be little more than an expensive detour on the road to doing something else. Thus, Aaron Bell, who graduated as a film major from the University of Wisconsin in 1988, struggled through years of uninspiring nonunion work managing crews on commercials, television pilots and the occasional feature before landing his noncinematic job designing advertising for Modern Luxury Media LLC, a Chicago-based magazine publisher.

"You sort of have this illusion coming out of film school that you'll work into this small circle of creatives, but you're actually more pigeonholed as a technician," said Mr. Bell, who is now 39.

For some next-generation students, however, the shot at a Hollywood job is no longer the goal. They'd rather make cinematic technique - newly democratized by digital equipment that reduces the cost of a picture to a few thousand dollars and renders the very word "film" an anachronism - the bedrock of careers as far afield as law and the military.

At the University of Southern California, whose School of Cinema-Television is the nation's oldest film school (established in 1929), fully half of the university's 16,500 undergraduate students take at least one cinema/television class. That is possible because Elizabeth Daley, the school's dean, opened its classes to the university at large in 1998, in keeping with a new philosophy that says, in effect, filmic skills are too valuable to be confined to movie world professionals. "The greatest digital divide is between those who can read and write with media, and those who can't," Ms. Daley said. "Our core knowledge needs to belong to everybody."

In fact, even some who first enrolled in U.S.C.'s film school to take advantage of its widely acknowledged position as a prime portal to Hollywood have begun to view their cinematic skills as a new form of literacy. One such is David Hendrie, who came to U.S.C. in 1996 after a stint in the military intending to become a filmmaker, but - even after having had the producer/director Robert Zemeckis as a mentor - found himself drawn to the school's Institute for Creative Technologies, where he creates military training applications in a variety of virtual reality, gaming and filmic formats. One film he developed was privately screened for the directors John Milius and Steven Spielberg, who wanted to understand the military's vision of the future.

"That was like a film student's dream," said Mr. Hendrie, who nonetheless believes he has already outgrown anything he was likely to accomplish on the studio circuit. "I found myself increasingly demoralized by my experiences trying to pitch myself as a director for films like 'Dude, Where's My Car?' " Mr. Hendrie said. "What I'm doing here at I.C.T. speaks to the other interests I've always had, and in the end excited my passion more."

In recent weeks, members of a Baltimore street gang circulated a DVD that warned against betrayal, packaged in a cover that appeared to show three dead bodies. That and the series of gruesome execution videos that have surfaced in the Middle East are perhaps only the most extreme face of a complex sort of post-literacy in which cinematic visuals and filmic narrative have become commonplace.

Melding easily with the growing digital folk culture, some film majors have simply taken to creating art forms outside the boundaries of the established film business. In one such instance, Wes Pentz, a k a DJ Diplo - a 2003 graduate of Temple University, where film majors are encouraged to invent new career paths in museums, leisure businesses and elsewhere - broke through with his trademark Hollertronix, a style modeled on cinematic soundtracks. "I think of my songs as having a movement, like I would watch in a film, and there's a narrative feel to them," said Mr. Pentz, who said he had learned to frame music differently because of his film school experience.

In the public policy arena, meanwhile, students like Yale's Mr. Herbst hope to heighten political debate with productions far more pointed than the most political feature film. Even a picture like "Hotel Rwanda," with its unblinking look at African genocide, is "a soup kitchen approach," Mr. Herbst said: "You're offered something to eat, but there are no vitamins." Bringing film directly into politics, he expects to throw objectivity out the window and change minds - perhaps not an unrealistic aim at a time when, in a bit of what a headline in The Wall Street Journal characterized as "film noir," the Edward D. Jones & Company brokerage has entered the fray over the proposed Social Security overhaul with a highly produced video.

To some extent, such broadening vision is already helping to make economic sense of film education, which in the past was often a long path to nowhere. "Most find their way, and the skills they learn from us are applicable to other careers and pursuits," Dale Pollock, dean of the School of Filmmaking at the North Carolina School of the Arts, said of his students. "So we're not wasting their time or money."

Still more, Ms. Daley, the U.S.C. Cinema-Television dean, argues that to generalize such skills has become integral to the film school's mission. More than 60 academic courses at U.S.C. now require students to create term papers and projects that use video, sound and Internet components - and for Ms. Daley, it's not enough. "If I had my way, our multimedia literacy honors program would be required of every student in the university," she said.
Santo

Post by Santo »

You know, I pick on Roger more than anybody, but people equipped with a workprinter who've got it set up properly offer the best cost-effective alternative to those making short films over an extended schedule who want to play with edits sooner than later as they piece their short films together and go through a learning curve. My move from "screenwriter" to "filmmaker" was made more possible this way. And I'm certain this is a great route for "hobbyist" to "filmmaker", too.

There, Roger, a one paragraph essay on "why I never got Rank/Spirit or whatever transfers done initially and stuck with Workprinter transfer providers."
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Post by downix »

I plan on getting a workprinter probably later this year. Yes, I know that the quality is not up to a Rank or other such machines, but I'm not getting it for that work, but for the basic work of editing my beast together first, before I go for a pro transfer. That way I can reduce the cost of transfer by editing my movie before it goes under for high-quality scans.
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Post by T-Scan »

I've had the WP for about a year now. It's really helped me master editing and sound sync. kind of puts film makers in the same realm of musicians.. they hand out CD's, now we hand out DVD's.
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Re: not so pro 8...

Post by filmo »

alan doyle wrote:when your talking about 12 year old telecine machines...like anything mechanical..money needs to be spent on servicing..
all post companies in london have in house engineers..
most are servicing fairly new gear not 12 year old relics..
does anybody believe pro 8 has an in house team..
i am not been funny,but anybody that has seen the pro 8 showreel,will know what quality to expect..
sometimes in life, you pay extras bucks for quality,not with this company..
i am not really sure what exactly you are paying for..
Having just compared flying spot's demo reel to pro8's, I'm astounded at how good the flying spot stuff is, and how wretched pro8's is.

Not only is the Pro8 footage soft, but the production value of the entire reel is just abysmal. It's like someone just happened to have a camera around....What's up with all those super-unsteady telephoto shots and atrocious whip-pans? Looks like average home-movie stuff to me.

The Flying Spot reel was exciting. It really made me want to dig out my Nizo and start shooting again.

BTW, does anyone know anything about the stocks used in the Flying Spot reel? I thought I could recognize Kodachrome 40 in the snow/ski shots, but I can't be too sure about it.
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Post by Uppsala BildTeknik »

Yeah, the Flying spot demo looks good, but I think they are trying to fool people by showing a " Mixed media project, 16mm, DV, Super 8. Super 8 transferred @ FSFT" in the page for 8mm film.

I mean in the page for 8mm film they should have a clip with ONLY 8mm films that they have transferred, not mix 8mm with 16mm to make it look better! 8O Bastards! :evil:
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Post by filmo »

Uppsala BildTeknik wrote:Yeah, the Flying spot demo looks good, but I think they are trying to fool people by showing a " Mixed media project, 16mm, DV, Super 8. Super 8 transferred @ FSFT" in the page for 8mm film.

I mean in the page for 8mm film they should have a clip with ONLY 8mm films that they have transferred, not mix 8mm with 16mm to make it look better! 8O Bastards! :evil:
Well, I just downloaded the "Sanctuary" clip. After I install WMV (just got a new Mac--haven't got all the medial players installed yet), I'll take a look at it. According to their site, "Sanctuary" is a mixed-media project with "super-8 transferred @ FSFT."

The reel that I just viewed (they have it in both Quicktime and WMV) is supposedly all-super 8. I saved it to disk. It's called "Super8demo.mov."

Why would anyone who charges the rates they charge try to pull a fast one? Perhaps they should mention the kinds of stocks and cameras used, but I've seen projected K-40 look very good, so I don't think their super8 demo is faked.

Have you seen any of the clips for "Downhill Motion?" It's a 100% Super 8 skate film shot in the 70's. It looks very good, and they edited and projected camera original hundreds of times before it finally got transferred.

My big beef with Pro8 is that I think they did a crappy job shooting, editing, transferring, and compressing their demo reel, regardless of what format they shot it in. If they think that their demo is a good product, then I wouldn't trust their judgement on anything.
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Post by Uppsala BildTeknik »

Nope, haven´t seen Downhill Motion, I would like to though.

The clip I saw was the super8demo.mov too. Some scenes just look almost too good.
I wonder if they have mixed some 16mm in there, some of the timelapse....

It is a shame they have any mixed clips, hard to know for sure what clips they are talking about (it sound like it would be the Sanctuary, but I´m not 100% sure it isn´t both.)

Regarding test clips and compression:
I think that they should have very short, full size clips with dv-avi files. This way the compression would not be anything to consider and full size. Well, it is full size.... :)
Everything downsized will always "look better" and makes it harder to tell the difference in quality between different test clips.

Having very long test clips is not necessary, it only drives up the filesize, or makes them increase compression, and probably to downsize the clip too...
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Post by shralp »

Uppsala and Filmo -

What Flying Spot states about my film, "Sanctuary" is correct. It is a mixed media piece of 16mm, DV and Super 8mm. The only 16mm that I used in this movie was for the open of the film, a freeride montage that is cut to The Doors "Riders On The Storm" Remix instrumental at the beginning of the movie. Everything else in the film is either K-40 or Plus-X. All timelapses, including those in the open, are K-40. -Eric
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Post by filmo »

shralp wrote:Uppsala and Filmo -

What Flying Spot states about my film, "Sanctuary" is correct. It is a mixed media piece of 16mm, DV and Super 8mm. The only 16mm that I used in this movie was for the open of the film, a freeride montage that is cut to The Doors "Riders On The Storm" Remix instrumental at the beginning of the movie. Everything else in the film is either K-40 or Plus-X. All timelapses, including those in the open, are K-40. -Eric
So I take it some of your footage made it into the other demo?
Like the helicopter taking off and the snowboarders spraying snow right into the camera? I do think it looks like Kodachrome because there's so much blue sky and the K40 grain, while relatively fine, shows up so well in blue skies as a distinctive swirly pattern of little black dots. Anyone who's shot K40 knows what I'm talking about.

It's a bit tough for me to compare the two, because Super8demo.mov plays in Quicktime on my Mac, and it looks absolutely clear and beautiful. Sanctuary.wmv requires Windows Media Player, which (at least on the Mac side) is a second rate media player, full of artifacts and jaggies--but the film itself looks cool.

If I needed a super high quality transfer, based on what I've seen, I'd go with Flying Spot. The contrast and sharpness make the footage really pop.

Shralp--what kind of gear did you use, camera-wise, for the S8 footage?
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Post by B.K. »

Thanks for all the information and discussion.

As a follow-up, Pro8mm went and did a free retransfer and the footage looks really fantastic. The color shifts and "grain" were just the work of colorist going off the camera notes and correcting for shot that were intended to dark or blue. Meaning, the grain was more a case of video noise from cranking the gain up on a really dark image, to get more details in the shadow area. The one thing I got to say is that I am really impressed with the above-normal lattitude on V2 500T. Meaning, 3 stops under gives me really rich blacks, but 5 stops over and I can still read details.

As for Pro8mm demo reel, it seems to have not been updated in awhile (not taking advantage of new stocks) and seems to be heavy on old 8mm footage from the 70's or personal holiday footage. So I don't know how accurate an indication it is of their telecine ability. I figure if A-list D.P.s use this place they already did their homework. I went with them, because they advertise a Rank Cintel suite. The place mentioned in Seattle sounds like a decent competitor, but they don't seem to possess the same name-brand standard equipment as Pro8mm. However, the colorists at Pro8mm are less than attentive.

I have used Bono in the past (for 16mm). I know they recently have upgraded their equipment, but it seems to be an irregular service. Meaning, I believe they do Super-8 everyonce in awhile, when enough orders pile up.

Once again, thanks for the information.
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Post by shralp »

Filmo -
Yes pretty much all of the action sports footage in the Flying Spot Demo is mine, (incl. the helicopter shot). Its all K-40. This footage was shot on my Nizo Professional. -Eric
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Post by filmo »

shralp wrote:Filmo -
Yes pretty much all of the action sports footage in the Flying Spot Demo is mine, (incl. the helicopter shot). Its all K-40. This footage was shot on my Nizo Professional. -Eric
That demo is very good. It looks very good playing on Quicktime at almost full screen on my computer. In fact, if I roll my chair a few feet back it looks as good as the best projected super 8. Actually better, because you don't get the projector registration problems.

Do you have a Quicktime version of the trailer for Sanctuary? WMV is very artifacty on my computer. I guess it's because WMV is optimised for Windows rather than Macintosh. Or maybe QT is just better. I don't know.

I was wondering about the black and white footage. I loaned my Nizo 801 to a filmmaker about 7 years ago, and he shot his short on Plus-X and had it telecined at Pro8 (which was still called Super8Sound back then).
They did a pretty good job (although he wasn't happy with their customer service). But when he showed me the finished film on video, I though it was Tri-X. Same with your black and white footage. My projected Plus-X always seemed less contrasty.

I suppose Tri-X would really look grainy after telecine transfer.
I can simply forget about transferring those three rolls of 4-X that I shot back in 1990. Grain the size of soccer balls.

But the K-40 transferred looks exactly like K-40 projected to me. I guess it has something to do with color perception.

But on the whole, that demo reel is perhaps the best-looking super8 footage I've seen thus far on the internet.

I'm going to download the Sanctuary trailer at work where I use a PC running Windows and see if it looks better there.
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Post by Dre »

shralp wrote:Filmo -
Yes pretty much all of the action sports footage in the Flying Spot Demo is mine, (incl. the helicopter shot). Its all K-40. This footage was shot on my Nizo Professional. -Eric
That was all shot on K-40?! 8O That’s amazing! I really thought that helicopter and snowboarder footage was shot on EXR50D. Wow, that is some of the best K-40 footage I’ve ever seen! Did you use any filters on the camera, like a Polarizer filter?
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Post by shralp »

Filmo - Actually, the very open of Sanctuary is Tri-X, (this nasty urban stuff), with the grain jacked up in telecine. Everything else, all the B&W action is the old Plus-X. This was shot on stormy days with a Orange filter.

I don't have my movie in Quicktime or Windows Media actually, I just gave the master to Eric at Flying Spot and they did the rest.

Dre - yes the color shots are all K-40. I used a polo filter for the Argentina segment of the film but not anywhere else. Kodachrome pops blue sky so hard as it is that I really didn't need any more. Thanks for the kind words on the look.

I don't know guys, everyone seems to be having spotty experiences with their telecine houses here and there. What can I say, at the expense of sounding like a pitch man, if you want good telecine your going to nail it every time at Flying Spot! They just totally kick ass. You're going to pay some cash for it and I know that this doesn't fit into alot of peoples budgets and thats fine, but if you're taking your stuff to the next level and making that kind of capital investment then they are going to compeletely maximize your images. Assuming that you shoot your stuff right, I've seen nothing better from anyone else, bottom line. Thousands of feet of 16mm and over 100 rolls of Super 8mm have shown me this... -Eric
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