why are there no 17.5mm movie cameras?

[Nigel]

I remember about 6 or 7 years ago Aaton was pushing 24mm. They gave up because everyone knows it is easier to just go with the standard 35mm. Plus, 3-Perf give you pretty much everything that 24mm would have but is widely accepted.

Good Luck

[half 35]

:lol:
Hello all, after read this post, I register imediatelly, and at some time I
have this idea, good idea. :lol:
My idea is make the frame at 4,5 x 8mm,(16x9),and one roll of 100ft,has the same duration of the std8 in 100ft.
Varios old 16mm camera I thing to be possible to convert at this sistem.
I pretend to use, the lens at 15mm or 12,5 mm(std8 lens)as normal lens.
Mybe the old Yemo 35mm cameras to be converted also.
I have also the idea to use 35mm photo canister, for make one small camera, for short shotting scenes.
The economy of tis system I thing is enormeous, and the avaiabilite the film, is tremendous(any kiosk)have film.
I know that this system is purely amateur, but this make much fun.

best regards

Ricardo
(scuse my bad ingles)

[half 35]

:lol:
Hello all, after read this post, I register imediatelly, and at some time I
have this idea, good idea. :lol:
My idea is make the frame at 4,5 x 8mm,(16x9),and one roll of 100ft,has the same duration of the std8 in 100ft.
Varios old 16mm camera I thing to be possible to convert at this sistem.
I pretend to use, the lens at 15mm or 12,5 mm(std8 lens)as normal lens.
Mybe the old Yemo 35mm cameras to be converted also.
I have also the idea to use 35mm photo canister, for make one small camera, for short shotting scenes.
The economy of tis system I thing is enormeous, and the avaiabilite the film, is tremendous(any kiosk)have film.
I know that this system is purely amateur, but this make much fun.

best regards

Ricardo
(scuse my bad ingles)

[timdrage]

Some interesting ideas, though I think personally if I ever got hold of an old 35mm camera I'd just try and find the cheapest/freest stock (short ends?) I could get my hands on and actually just shoot 35 rather than converting it to a more obscure format! But it would be an interesting project and I'd applaud any attempts!

[Herb Montes]

Ricardo,

From what I understand you are suggesting using half the width of 35mm with a single perf pull-down. It is workable but you will need a way to project the films or transfer them to video.

I just acquired an old DeVry 35mm camera from eBay which could be the basis for such a camera. In fact the dealer says he has a few more DeVry camera mechanisms very cheap. They just need a light tight case, a lens and drive to make them work. The one I'm getting has a housing and clockwork drive.

As for a projector there are the DeVry or Acme 35mm "suitcase" projectors on eBay very cheap. I got two of these needing restoration but they are very modifiable to whatever one needs like a transfer machine or even a printer.

Being able to use 35mm still film in cassettes for a movie camera is a neat idea. You can get film anywhere. Though reversal 35mm (slide film) is getting hard to find. You can use color negative and have it processed in an hour in most photo places or drug stores. Get it transfered to video for editing and you have a workable system for filmmaking. Brilliant!

[timdrage]

Get it transfered to video for editing and you have a workable system for filmmaking. Brilliant!

but how many (few!) seconds would you get on a 36 exposure film!?

I'd love to have a little portable 35mm projector, would be fun to be able to project the 35mm trailers that seem so easily and cheaply avaliable on ebay etc... and would be cool to experiment with scratch/paint on film cameraless animation and that kind of thing...

Tho having said that I've yet to actually use the 16mm projector I've had lying around for a few years now! (I don't have any 16mm films...if anyone could fix me up with some (scrap?) film suitable for testing if the thing even works that'd be cool! Trade for a copy of 'island of mystery' super-8 silent, or something? Let me know if interested, thanks!)

[Herb Montes]

I would have to find out how many feet of film is in a 36 exposure roll. But then 36 exposures means a sideways format. I think what Ricardo suggested is a single frame per perforation. So figure out how many perfs per foot times the length of a 36 exposure roll will give you the frames in one direction. The camera could be engineered to stop when it reaches the end then you use a rotating back to get the other side exposed like in double regular 8mm. When you take the cassette to the processor just don't have them cut the strip or makes prints. You can even porcess it yourself using standard E-6 chemistry and commonly available processing tanks.

The camera itself would be no bigger than a basic 35mm SLR. In fact I have a 35mm half-frame rangefinder camera that can take 72 exposures on a 36 exposure roll.

[half 35]

Hi..Herb and Tim

Thank you for yours considerations.
Herb, you understand all. The system is one frame to perfuration.
In the 35mm norm, 4,75 mm is the distance betweem perfurations.
My frame proposed, a litle biger tham the super 8.
I sugest the slite the film in two 16mm strip(for share 16mm existing devices).
The 3mm of center film is lost.
I pretend shooting in negative(easy for home developer)and telecine it like a WP device,(frame to frame transfer).
Well ,in the 35mm photo canister(36 frames)36mm +2mm bettweem frames,are 1360mm(1,36mts)dividing for 4.75 are 286 frames ,in each side off film.In 16fps are 17,89 seg.in each side.
I pretend to shoot at 12 fps(minimum)and transfer it ,and use program like Gooder video ,or similar.(in betweem frames morph algorytm)

For printing film, you projector Devry ,is the ideal thing :lol:

I sugest broken 16mm projector for to use in this system.


best regards
Ricardo.

[Herb Montes]

The problem in compatibility with 16mm is that the perforations on 35mm film is bigger than those on 16mm film. Though it is possible to modify a 16mm projector to pulldown film cut from 35mm. One possibility is to use a motorized filmstrip projector to do the transfer. These are meant to use 35mm film perfs. You would have to modify the film advance but it is workable. Not all 35mm projectors use a claw to advance the film but a sprocket attached to a Geneva movement.

[half 35]

Hi Herb
If you know ,the 35mm use various "four frame,sprocket devices",these sprocket have 16 thoot,in each.If you slite it in the midle,you have now two 16 tooth sprockets . Any 16mm projector that use 16 tooth sprocket,is good for modification.You need also modific the all path of the film, to half 35 use.Incluse the claw deviation,and position.
It is a work for a good clockmaker´s machinist, and for me are the big troble.

The old "RCA400" model 16mm projector use 16 tooth sprocket,I know.
I work in these device at last 6 months, and never have completed it.
regards
Ricardo

[Carlos 8mm]

Hola Ricardo,
Mercosul Presente!

I was thinking about your idea, and checking old film formats I found this:



That is a piece of 22 mm Edison´s Home movie film.
"In 1912 Thomas Edison introduced the 22mm 'Home' Kinetoscope for safety film. It had three rows of images sized 4 x 6mm, separated by two rows of perforations. One column of images was cranked forward, the middle row backward, and the third row forward again. Films from 10 to 15 metres in length and stored in special containers were for available for rent from Edison depots or by mail. A camera was never produced."

The Old Man of Menlo Park is telling us something: Shoot the entire 35 mm film in three stripes with frames of 4,75 x 8mm !

Remember that horizontal distance between the perforations in 35 mm is 25 mm. So it is possible to shoot 3 three 8mm wide stripes.

For this purpose It will be necessary to use a magazine and make special modifications to the 35/16 mm camera, specially to construct a device that allows to move the camera lens 8mm to the right, to shoot the second strip of the film after turn the magazine.
To shoot the third and last strip, turns the magazine again and move camera lens to the left again. Of course you must to modify a projector tha avoids to project the three rows as the old Edison Home Kinetoscope.
The main problem of this "new" format is the impossibility to slit the film in three rows, because the strip of the center does not have perforations. But it´s OK if you want to make film to video transfers only.

There´s a lot of cheapo B&W 35 mm film as Bluefire police or Svema, and the advantaje to approach the entire 35 mm roll.

Carlos.

[Herb Montes]

Ricardo, you would have to consider the pitch of the perforations between 16mm and 35mm. There is a slight difference. Now you can possibly put a sprocket for 35mm on a 16mm projector. Machine it down for 17.5mm. If you're lucky you can find one of those antique 17.5 mm cameras like the Birtac or Biokam. I was thinking about one of the 100' capacity 35mm cameras like the Eyemo or the DeVry could be modified for single perf pull-down and a new gate made for the frame size you suggest. This would mean you can get about 4 times the footage out of a 100' spool. With a double sided gauge you can get the equivalent of 400' feet or more of 8mm from a 100' roll of 35mm film. Right now Film Emporium sells 35mm Eyemo (100') loads of color negative for $18.00. Most major labs can process and print it.

Even the fifty foot capacity cameras like the Ika Kinamo or Bol Cinegraph, if you can find one, would work. I see them occasionally in online antique camera sites.

I'm going to see what it would take to modify the DeVry camera when it comes in. There has been a discussion on the Konvas group about Techniscope (2-perf pull down) mods of Russian cameras. There was even a Techniscope modified Mitchell on eBay a short while back (I think it was selling for $15,000).

Carlos, I am familiar with Edison's concept. It was made for distribution only of commercially made films. It would be difficult to edit such a fiilm if made at home which is why a camera was never produced. The 17.5mm formatt was a bit more common with cameras serving as printers and projectors. I already mentioned several brands and there have been others. But they fell by the wayside when 16mm and 9.5mm film came out in the late 1920's.

[half 35]

Hola Carlos

You now to provoke a storm in my mind!
I think it is realy inadequate,to lost a 8mm ,of pure qualit image area,in my system.
But in the times off digital eletronic video, the old Edson system is now actualized.
Perhaps I never project this film,but I like to make a optical copy do it.
This optical copy is possible in any other format of film.

regards
Ricardo

[half 35]

Hi Carlos

After tink much over you post, I decide to be returned at a antique project.
A choice of best utilization of surface the film, and praticit of making, I decide to make a more easy system.
The tipe "Edson" system are reality very good, but it is very dificult to implement at home,because a hard an sofisticated mecanics need´s.
At this time, I return to wort at the job of my mini camera :o ,and after I make one photo this thing, I post it .

Thank you

Ricardo

[GeneratriX]

Good day all;

I'm not a heavy poster here, and I'm more frequently reading than posting. But this time I can't pass!

Following the "half35"'s mini-camera concept:

...could you use a 220 film roll type, instead of a 135 one? :roll:

Being more specific, it has some advantages, as follows:

1) No sprocket holes in the film strip.
2) 60 mm wide of high-quality film.
3) Longitude of film greater than 1500 mm.
4) Black paper-back on one face of the film, protecting it.
5) Very plain and flexable film support.
6) Rolls can be loaded on dimmed light too, not only dark room.
7) High quality and high resolution sensitive coatings, with a lot of latency.


...What do you think? ...Could you imagine, maybe six 9.5mm strips by roll without sprocket holes just to scan it on a modded 9.5mm projector or transfer machine? How much time in seconds could you get from 7.5 meters of 9.5mm film at some reasonable frame rate?

Besides this, 220 rolls are just cheap as the 135 ones; and you could just slide the lens 9.5 mm each time, combining this with a rotated back...

Not to mention that you'll get the complete 9.5 mm width of the film. Maybe there is the challenge: an electronic reliable transport system without sprocket wheels.

Just my two cents!
Cheers! ;)