"avant garde" film look?

[mattias]

ok,

i'm shooting a music video on 16mm next week and it's supposed to look like an "avant garde" silent film, of a slightly later date, i.e. no funny motion or uneven exposure, but solid, steady and well lit black and white. i'm thinking classic three point lighting using fresnels, an old zoom lens for a little flare and softness, and a red filter for white faces, and the director hired me on that. :-) any other ideas?

question two: we're shooting on fuji black and white and i didn't even know such existed. any input on that? difference compared with double-x, which would have been my choice. i don't even know what speeds there are, so i've just asked for "as fast as possible".

(perhaps i should mention that aside from the venedig sjunker video which i directed myself, this is my first time as a dp since 2001 or so. it's a little scary but great fun too)

thanks,

/matt

[Santo]

Is it Neopan? I've heard of this being available outside of north america as motion picture stock. Could be wrong about that.

[sunrise]

I take it that "avant garde" means late silent era (Murnau, Drejer, Seastrom etc.) or maybe you could specify more (Soviet Montage or French Impressionism). "Avant garde" is not a film genre.

Don't forget that a lot of the camerawork of those films where very inovative and the film "language" was developed that there was almost no need for subtitles. There where a lot of long takes, tracking shots, tinted angels, false (German) perspective and painted backgrounds.

Keep your back light powerfull and from a high angle. And stick to the three-point lighting. Windows, fireplaces and lamps are also places for dramatic lightning effects.

Remember that many later silent films did not have washed out faces. The use of the panchromatic films made facial expressions stand out and expose very well (Jeanne D'Arc being the most obvious example).

It was also quite common to use visual effects like double exposure or make a frame within the frame (for example a round frame).

michael

[mattias]

I take it that "avant garde" means late silent era (Murnau, Drejer, Seastrom etc.)

exactly. sorry for the sloppy description.

There where a lot of long takes, tracking shots, tinted angels, false (German) perspective and painted backgrounds.

yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. we're shooting in a "fun house" at an amusement park. :-) i know pretty well which shots i want to get, but i don't feel quite confident as to the lighting and such, yet.

...

great ideas and advice. i'll use it all. thanks.

/matt

[Carlos 8mm]

I take it that "avant garde" means late silent era (Murnau, Drejer, Seastrom etc.)

exactly. sorry for the sloppy description.

There where a lot of long takes, tracking shots, tinted angels, false (German) perspective and painted backgrounds.

yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. we're shooting in a "fun house" at an amusement park. i know pretty well which shots i want to get, but i don't feel quite confident as to the lighting and such, yet.

...

great ideas and advice. i'll use it all. thanks.

/matt

Ok, You wanna make an "Expresionist" film like Robert Wiene´s "Das kabinet des Dr. Calligari" , right?

[audadvnc]

Also, if you're doing any outdoor daytime shots, you might try some orthochromatic optical sound film, like the Agfa stock. It is very fine grain, no anti-halation backing (so highlights blow out) and all red images turn black. It looks very old-fashioned. Of course your red filter and old Pan Cinor zoom will accomplish much the same effect.

[mattias]

hey, i'm just the dp. it's the director who uses terms like "avant garde". :-) expressionist is probably a better description. thanks for bearing with me.

/matt

[sunrise]

"German Expressionism" and "no funny motion" is not compatible. The acting style of the genre is very exaggerated and expressionistic. I think, mattias, that you really are reffering to late silent Hollywood (where a lot of the German directors went escaping from The Third Reich, and some of the Scandinavian greatest).

michael

[Ludwig Draser]

Hello.
With the new Black&White negative materials it is not easy to get a old touch of your films. Older material has a very fine grain, low contrast generally and a special look in case of using orthochromatic material. (If you see the original material and not the printing faults some generations later) Also the exposure latitude are low. Best are getting this touch are with Black&White reversal material and color correction filters.
Kindly regards
Ludwig Draser

[mattias]

I think, mattias, that you really are reffering to late silent Hollywood (where a lot of the German directors went escaping from The Third Reich, and some of the Scandinavian greatest).

whatever. i studied physics and computer science in college, before i dropped out after a year. film studies have never been one of my interests. :-) when i said no funny motion i meant no charlie chaplin hand cranking. there will be expressive acting for sure and the story isn't anywhere near realistic. more like the andalusian dog, which is the only reference i can manage to come up with since like i said i'm far from being an expert. the director has a film at home that he's based much of the idea on but i don't remember what it's called. i'll go check it out tomorrow and i should be able to tell you more. oh, and another reference could be the "typically film school" parts of the video in the ring.

EDIT: it's called at land by maya deren. russian refugee in new york. i guess you're right sunrise...

/matt

[christoph]

EDIT: it's called at land by maya deren. russian refugee in new york. i guess you're right sunrise...

Maya Deren is *very* different from german expressionists and it's indeed what people usually call avant-garde, so your first description was not too bad.
those are experimental films from the mid 40ies. as far as i know most of her films were shot on a bolex on 16mm, the films look very dreamy and airy, quite a bit of grain (hey, this is 16mm in the 40ies, remember? ;).
lighting is not too hard, no deep black harsh shadows etc... negative stock fits much better than reversal here.

you should definitely check out her films, "Meshes of the Afternoon" is probably one of the most touching experimental films i've ever seen... and "At Land" is very nice too... in fact you should just watch the whole bunch of them, she only made about six.

please let us know if you get more details about the fuji stocks, i have been trying to get my hand on those for ages... as much as i love the kodak reversal films, plus-x negative is not really spectacular and double-x is one of the worst emulsions for 16mm in my eyes.

++ christoph ++

[mattias]

Maya Deren is *very* different from german expressionists and it's indeed what people usually call avant-garde, so your first description was not too bad.

damn, i should have stuck with it instead of revealing my ignorance. :-)

you should definitely check out her films, "Meshes of the Afternoon"

i looked it up and realized i've seen it. it's indeed fantastic. and now that i know more what the director had i mind i think i know how to light it. the regular student film/low budget lighting scheme will work fine i think. we'll probably have four arri fresnels and a blonde, as well as diffusion, foamcore and blackwrap. i think i'll try to get a fill at around two stops under using the blonde bounced off the ceiling, and then paint away with the arri's. should be fun.

double-x is one of the worst emulsions for 16mm in my eyes.

technically you're right, but i actually like it a lot.

/matt

[christoph]

technically you're right, but i actually like it a lot.

it's ok at nights, but try to use it with a soft angenieux zoom on a overcast day and you'll see what i mean ;)

on the other hand, one of my all time favorite films, "Vivre sa vie", was shot with double-x in the early 60ies (on 35mm though)
++ christoph ++

[Carlos 8mm]

when i said no funny motion i meant no charlie chaplin hand cranking. there will be expressive acting for sure and the story isn't anywhere near realistic. more like the andalusian dog, which is the only reference i can manage to come up with since like i said i'm far from being an expert.

Perhaps your film Director wants a sort of "mix" Between "after war German Expressionism" and French-Spanish post-1924 "Surrealism" .

both artistic mouvements are different.

Expressionism emphatize the expression of faces, ambient, Try to "express" what the soul feels, horror, pain, etc.

Surrealism mouvement is inspired in dreams ad subconscient, you can see that in The andalucian dog and Dali´s work. A mix of reality and dreams, frequently distorted.

Carlos

[sunrise]

Avant garde silent film is still not a genre.

Avant garde is a wide term for a film style that covers genres like surrealism, lyrical films and experimental narratives. Deren fits into the latter.

The silent era also ended in 1927. Deren started in the fourties. Later silent avant garde films are not categorized as silent although many of them are (mainly for bugdet reasons). Some had instructions for soundtrack or a score like the big silent productions.

Deren's films are a reference point as to student film lighting. So I believe you are on the right track.

michael