Shooting Super Duper 8 - some thoughts and observations

[reflex]

Yemi started a thread asking about the Super Duper 8 “expanded frame Super 8” format a while back. I've converted a number of cameras over the last six months and here are my thoughts (which hopefully go a little beyond the vignetting issues):

1. First off, increasing the S8 frame size helps to reduce grain and increase full-frame resolution. That's a good thing, especially when the "Super Duper 8" conversion is backwards compatible with normal Super 8.

2. The Super Duper 8 conversion exposes the right side of the frame more than the left side. This means that the lens is now off-centre in the image frame. It is not casually noticeable. (In other words: Don't zoom while shooting Super Duper 8. This isn't really an issue, since one should nearly always use a dolly [wheelchair/pallet jack] or use a steadicamish mount).

3. Film scratches. Some people have reported scratches appearing in the extended portion of the Super Duper 8 frame. The Sleep Always guys rigged a wet gate to hide them in their work. The jury is still out on this one - it may be that automated processing equipment handles the film more outside the "Super 8 safe frame,” or it may be that the widened gate is scratching the film (you have to be careful to polish and de-burr the widened gate after filing it - you won't be able to feel some rough spots with a finger, for example). My advice? Shoot a test roll and inspect it carefully after processing and before it’s been run through a projector/telecine/editor.

4. Super Duper 8 telecine. Before modifying a camera, consider if you can get affordable Super Duper 8 telecine done. I've got access to a local Workprinter XP owner who has a really nice 16:9 broadcast quality camera -- he's OK with the idea of reframing to get a 16:9 image. Others may not be, especially for only a roll or two, since it can be a calibration annoyance. And if you go the Workprinter route, you're restricted to reversal films. [I can't afford to shoot negative and get a top-end telecine, so this isn't an issue for me.]

5. Make sure you matte any newly exposed metal when the gate is enlarged (paint it with non-reflective black paint). You'll notice that most S8 film gates are matte black around the lens-side of the gate to reduce spurious reflections. Black model paint works well.

6. Inaccurate viewfinder. When you expand the Super Duper 8, the viewfinder optics remain the same. This means that you no longer see the correct framing for your shot (there'll be an extra 13% on the right side of the frame). To compound the problem, if you telecine at 16:9, (1:1.77) you will crop a portion of the top and the bottom of the Super Duper 8 frame (which is approximately 1:1.45). The trick here is to shoot some test film - get a feel for what the Super Duper 8 reframing feels like in comparison to the regular viewfinder. Not difficult, but it requires a little more thought.

7. Now lets tackle vignetting - most S8 lenses will cover the expanded frame at most focal lengths. The trick is to shoot a few frames of test film at various focal lengths. Write down the focal length in big, fat erasable marker on a white board and shoot that as your test image. (the white board will make it easier to see vignetting through a loupe or magnifying glass). Use single frame mode to conserve film. You'll quickly learn what the limits of your lens are. Once you've tested your camera, be careful to avoid focal length settings that vignette. [hint: When I run test film like this, I test several cameras at once, using a film changing bag to load/unload the film in complete darkness - it reduces film waste.]

My conclusion? Super Duper 8 is a logical progression, especially now that 16:9 televisions are becoming fairly common worldwide. It requires a bit more thinking (framing shots, avoiding lens vignetting), but at a minimum investment. Since SD8 is backwards-compatible with S8, you don't have much to lose.

reflex

PS - A couple more thoughts: a. Beaulieus can't be Super Dupered because of the guillotine mirrored shutter (pity - I'd probably love my Schneider in widescreen), b. Nizos have two teeny-tiny springs mounted behind the film gate to tension the film guide. If these get loose while you're removing the gate, you'll need a team of elves with magnifying glasses to find them. A (really) tiny dab of glue will hold them in place and allow them to function when reattached.

[Justin Lovell]

ah the fun of the nizo film gate...

yes, i had a tiny team of elves helping me (they looked a little like the tiny 'ash's' from army of darkness), and they get really pissed when you let the 2 little springs consecutively pop out over the course of 3 hours and they have to go an look for them in the dark basement workroom... everytime.

I never thought my fingers were so fat until.....

gung-ho.
jusetan.

thanks for the great post. p.s. i shot some framing tests with my nizo and my canon that I will share (once i get my workprinter going). would you be able to post some stills at varying focal lengths from the cameras you were using? (maybe i could just take still images of the neg (i mean pos) from the film tests i did)....

[christoph]

would be interesting to know which cameras you've found to be most forgiving and which focal lenghts were most problematic (i would guess wideangle at close focus)?
++ christoph ++

[reflex]

would be interesting to know which cameras you've found to be most forgiving and which focal lenghts were most problematic...

I'll post screen shots and information about a few cameras as soon as I get the latest test rolls back from Kodak (its been taking about a month here lately - not sure what's going on).

[ccortez]

And if you go the Workprinter route, you're restricted to reversal films. [I can't afford to shoot negative and get a top-end telecine, so this isn't an issue for me.]

I'm not sure I believe the no-neg WP restriction anymore. There are probably limitations, but I don't know about showstopping ones. If I had the Matrox rtx100, I'd expect excellent results. Anyway, I don't see how it's specifically related to the SD8 frame.

I'm sure Flying Spot could do better. But will a rank house agree to transfer a non-standard gauge? I expect they have S8 gates at best, not SD8. (As always, I could be and probably am wrong.)

Aside from all that... ;)

Excellent post and info, Reflex. It's a subject I'm thinking about more and more. I might have done it already if it weren't for the fact that 2 of my 3 Super 8 cameras are of the Nizo 801 variety. :evil:

[reflex]

I'm not sure I believe the no-neg WP restriction anymore. There are probably limitations, but I don't know about showstopping ones. If I had the Matrox rtx100, I'd expect excellent results. Anyway, I don't see how it's specifically related to the SD8 frame.

You're right - it's not related to SD8. I only mentioned the WP because its the only affordable way I've been able to come up with to capture SD8 film.

I've been watching the posts, and I'm quite impressed with your WP negative efforts and hope that you keep working on it! Trouble is, most WP owners haven't experimented with neg and are reversal-only, at least for now. I hope that changes in the near future. It'd be nice to see Roger offering a toolkit to handle neg conversions (Matrox RTX100 and associated plug-ins, filters, instructions, etc.).

[Justin Lovell]

have spoken with a few different transfer houses previously (once i found out the cost, i decided just to purchase a workprinter for future projects...), and they are able to xfer super duper 8.

Flying spot and the transfer station are able to, best i can remember.

jusetan

[Scotness]

I'll post screen shots and information about a few cameras as soon as I get the latest test rolls back from Kodak (its been taking about a month here lately - not sure what's going on).

Perhaps everyone working and testing SD8 (not toe be confused with DS8!) could put a table together of camera models and acceptable focal ranges.

I've never done it but as far as I understand the big issue with negs is how much scratches and dust etc stand out as opposed to on reversal

- This is good - gives me an excuse to buy another camera....there always seems to be heaps of Canon's floating around Australia.......

Scot

[Pj]

I have a Bauer 715XL and have an enlatged gate. At first I used a cheaper Bauer camera's gate that I had just simply filed away. There were problems in getting a smooth path since the gates in these cameras tend to be plastic and doesn't in my expeience file smoothly. But I got a friend who works in plastics to mould me one. This is working out better.

I have had a test roll processed, which I will be sending off for a Rank cintel transfer and will have results soon. As for vignetting from what I have seen so far there is none or very little only at extreme wide angle.

I have a Nizo 6080 and I am considering to widen the gate on it. An interesting thing about this model is that it is very easy to get to the viewfinder to enlarge it. I am assuming therefore it should make framing easier.

I wasn't aware that you cannot enlarge the Beaulieu cameras.
Surely you can!

I have looked at mine and I am convinced the mirrored shutter is just wide enough. Maybe someone like Bjorn Anderson can comment.

As far as I know you can get the telecine artist to zoom out on a Rank Cintel machine to accomodate the extra width quite easily, using the traditional Super 8 gate.

As for the name why is everyone calling it Super Duper 8?

I can't see the logic, forgive me maybe I am the only one. Especially since its not really an invention from the makers of Sleep Always, admitidly they have popularised it.

People were using enlarged gates in the 1970's well before sound film came about and had sensible names like Hyper 8, Super Xtra etc.

Pj

[Yemi]

Reflex,

Thanks for listing those points! In particular I am concerned about picking up scratches in the extended area but I will be getting Rank Cintel (or similar) transferred with a wet gate.

Mitch Perkins is currently converting 3 gates for me:

Canon 814 XL-S
Canon 814 E
Elmo C-300 DS8.

Now the Elmo gate is the most interesting.......something is telling me that this gate won't be quite as wide as the others in order to preserve a distinct boundary between neighbouring frames.
A disadvantage of Super Duper 8 DS8???

-----
Yemi

[timdrage]

Reflex, good post!

Don't zoom while shooting Super Duper 8. This isn't really an issue,

... unless you're shooting a kung fu film!

[reflex]

Mitch Perkins is currently converting 3 gates for me

Awesome! Glad to have you as another convert. I'm excited to hear how your conversions go - I remember your anamorphic tests were pretty cool.

As for the name why is everyone calling it Super Duper 8?

Well, we've got to call it something and Super Duper 8 seems to be the commonly accepted name -- suddenly referring to it as Hypersplooge 8 or Turbosplatter 8 at this point would confuse many people.

... unless you're shooting a kung fu film!

Tim, feel free to zoom all you want in your Super duper 8 Kung Fu films. I'm sure it'll enhance the flyuing-through-the-air-with-daggers effect. Hmm. Never really considered it, but there's one type of film where crystal sync doesn't matter a bit.

[timdrage]

but there's one type of film where crystal sync doesn't matter a bit.

:lol:

[Justin Lovell]

just watched 'the prodigal son' last night (kung-fu).. the dubbed translation is hillarious.. doesn't match the subtitles at all... and all the asians have british accents.

the 70's style stuntman film i'm working on right now has two audio tracks that i'm working with.. one is in korean with all english subtitles, the other is korean accented english (waay out of sync of course )

jusetan

[Rick Palidwor]

As for the name why is everyone calling it Super Duper 8?

I can't see the logic, forgive me maybe I am the only one. Especially since its not really an invention from the makers of Sleep Always, admitidly they have popularised it.

People were using enlarged gates in the 1970's well before sound film came about and had sensible names like Hyper 8, Super Xtra etc.

Pj

I always smile when people complain about the name. Here is a post from cinematography.com:

"Good Lord, can we stop using this "superduper8" title?
UltraSuper8 sounds much more professional, and has been used for longer.
Sorry to be so picky, but I just cringe when I hear this!
Matt Pacini"

My response:

"Actually we kind of like super-duper 8 and plan to continue using it (ultra super 8 doesn't do anything for me personally). It's one of those things that has been implemented by a number of different people so it seems to go by a number of names, though when I google ultra super 8 (or others I've heard, such as 8extra) I get nothing that would suggest it was in wide use, if used at all beyond these boards.

Having said that, super-8-know-everything (and I mean that well) Martin W. Baumgarten informs me that:
"It's also known as the Super 8-B format (B for the german word
Breitwand, meaning Widescreen) as via its inventor Ruedi Muster of Muster Film & Video Technik in Switzerland. It's original inception is from conversion of the BOLEX H-8 and H-8 Reflex cameras, and then moved over to the cartridge loading cameras."

So if there is any "professional" (i.e. camera manufacturer-derived) phrase for it it seems to be super 8-B, but in the meantime, whatever..."

So that's my position on the name. However, Phil at Pro 8 is quoted as saying he was toying with the idea some years ago and was going to call it super-duper 8, so maybe it's not a good name after all.


Rick