2K scan of Pro8/12 stock (s8 DI research project, Chile)

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:45 am

Matthew,

I noticed Pro8 was a bit overpriced. At least a lot more than I pay from Seattle using Forde/Flying Spot and buying film direct from Kodak at a student discount. ($11.40/cart: color neg)

http://www.fordelabs.com/
http://www.flyingspot.com/

By my estimate -- Stock/process/transfer -- I get:

10 mins 24fps S8 processed and transferred (one light not scene to scene) $126.00 USD (excluding tape costs)

10 mins 16mm 24fps (same transfer process) $227.00 USD

Pro8 requires 30mins of transfer time for 10mins of running time, unless I misunderstand their website. At that rate I hope Pro 8 users are getting scene to scene color correction!!....... I think Pro 8 is tipping the scale a bit... but again, I'm new to this game.

Steve

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:52 am

.....I guess that is just a bit more than one third savings.

Post by **sarmoti** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:54 am

Do you know any other place where you can get the /12 Vision 2 and other neg stocks in S8? As Pro8mm sell their stock with processing you might as well have it prepped and transfered there in one package.

Yeah, you get scene to scene at pro8mm with your package deal. Although I like the Shadow (FSS) more than an URSA (pro8mm) mainly because the results are more predictable as you never know how well they maintain the URSA. A CCD unit (as the Shadow) is much easier to handle than a Flying Spot Unit.

Post by **sarmoti** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:59 am

You're also considering student discounts for the S8... What about the student discount rate for 16mm? Also, we're not all eligible for a student discount.

Plus, if you're using the S8 footage for anything professional or broadcast you need the scene to scene correction.

Post by **sarmoti** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:02 am

let's also not forget all the money you loose with short ends on S8 due to the short running time of the cartridge.

Post by **alan doyle** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:10 am

congrats,really lovely work..keep going with it...
am i correct in thinking,that the spirit and shadow telecine machines use 16mm optics with a skid plate assembly,which then requires software to do a digital xy zoom into your top quality image..
it would be very interesting,to compare cintels millenium 2 which has a real optical s8 lens at 2 or 4k...with the spirit...
also considering the pro 8 companys poor perforation and dirt issues,with film stocks...
your tests clearly show a quality,i feel not seen on this site before..

WOW 8O

Post by **sarmoti** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:43 am

I might be wrong but as far as I know off the top of my head, yes, the Shadow (& Spirit) does use a skid plate and (unless you came up with an S8 custom lens) does a digital zoom on the image. Given that it uses 2K line array CCDs the results should be more than acceptable and still of slightly higher resolution than a regular flying spot system (Turbo or URSA) when doing SD transfers.

The custom lens concept isn't far fetched as the Spirit/Shadow optics are pretty straightforward, this would allow full HD transfers from S8 on the Shadow. On the Spirit you can pretty much get an HD native transfer from S8 even with the electronic X/Y zoom.

The Millenium doesn't have specific S8 optics for it and uses the 16mm optic's zoom on a S8 gate. It would provide a higher rez scan but I feel that flying spots are an outdated and painful technology that has lost to quality CCDs. I'm also not sure that there are any facilities that offer S8 scanning with a Millenium. If they do I'm sure that it's expensive since a Millenium suite is a $2-3M investment. I would rather get a custom lens made for the Spirit or Shadow in that case.

As far as I understand, Kodak outsources their negative packaging to Pro8mm so any issues you have with Pro8mm negs will probably be the same as what you get from Kodak.

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:55 am

sarmoti wrote:Do you know any other place where you can get the /12 Vision 2 and other neg stocks in S8?

The only place I've bought VISION 2 film is direct from Kodak.

By the way I was off on my estimate. It is more like 175.00 for S8 in the endgame using the stock and services I made reference to...

I imagine you are correct about student , and other discounts for 16mm. I'd like to learn more about that...

Cheers,

Steve

Post by **steve hyde** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:06 am

sarmoti wrote:As far as I understand, Kodak outsources their negative packaging to Pro8mm so any issues you have with Pro8mm negs will probably be the same as what you get from Kodak.

It is my understanding that Pro8mm cuts their own S8 film from 16mm stock. I think, for example, VISION 100T is only available from PRO 8mm in Super 8, because they split 16. Kodak themselves will sell you packaged V2 200T and V2 500T, but not V2 100T .. If you go to the Kodak website you will find that they have made zero effort to try to market the new emulsions in S8..

Steve

Post by **sarmoti** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:08 am

As far as I know the only place to get the 12 (100 ASA Vision 2) stock is from Pro8mm. I know Kodak offers the 17 & 18 (200 & 500 ASA). You can also get the 250D V2 from Pro8 if you ask them to custom cut a roll of 35mm for you.

Post by **sarmoti** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:14 am

There probably isn't enough demand for S8 negative to financially justify any marketing efforts by a large corporation like Kodak.

The reason they even offer the S8 stocks is probably because Pro8mm is doing all the packaging for them and Kodak considers offering S8 stocks as a gateway for future filmmakers to favor their stocks instead of Fuji's or even worse, digital adquisition.

Post by **timdrage** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:09 pm

Wow, that's a huge eye!!

Amazing project.

Post by **downix** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:56 pm

Something some folk are forgetting as well when they discuss the cost difference: Most of the added cost for Super8 can be found in post-production, and can be easily pushed onto a distributor. So you can still get it shot and to edit for less than 16mm still.

Post by **scottbobo2** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:40 pm

Congrats on the project .I spoke with the film unit in New Zealand and a couple of points.
1. A still photo is not the same as a moving image(in regard to the jpeg image posted).
2. super 8 neg to 35mm may have no advantage over k-40. In fact a k-40 2k scan will probably look better than any negative stock if going back to film (and cheaper).
It would be nice to see a test of k-40 s full potential.I have spoken with a number of post houses and all say k-40 will beat any negative(if going back to film)

Santo · Post by **Santo** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:12 pm

scottbobo2 wrote:Congrats on the project .I spoke with the film unit in New Zealand and a couple of points.
1. A still photo is not the same as a moving image(in regard to the jpeg image posted).
2. super 8 neg to 35mm may have no advantage over k-40. In fact a k-40 2k scan will probably look better than any negative stock if going back to film (and cheaper).
It would be nice to see a test of k-40 s full potential.I have spoken with a number of post houses and all say k-40 will beat any negative(if going back to film)

:lol:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/spirit.htm