Hello,
I am pleased to publish here, a 2K frame of a Vision2 100T (Pro8/12) stock, shot through Carl Zeiss T* 85mm mounted on a Classic Pro8 camera. The footage was developed in ECN-2 and ultrasonic cleaned at Laboratorios Megacolor in Sao Paulo, Brazil (state of the art super8 laboratory in Latin-America). Then the footage was scanned through a Spirit Datacine (I) at 2K data resolution (DPX RGB 10 bits log files) at The Film Unit, in Wellington, New Zealand.
This image (eye of chilean actress Francisca Lewin) is part of the early test I have done for my technical research project concerning digital intermediate potential for super8 medium. This project is produced by chilean cultural fund FONDART and myself.
The early test footage was recorded back to 5242 intermediate stock in Chilefilms and printed to standard vision 2383 stock. The final result of this test seen on 35mm project¡on. Other filmstock involved in this research project are : vision2 250D, EXR 50D, vision2 200T, vision2 500T and some other custom stocks. The project which considers a technical short-feature finalized in 35mm should be ready by June 2005.
Here is the link to the scanned image :
http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... LT_FONDART
The file was compressed to jpeg in order to meet the uploading specifications of the gallery of this website.
Many thanks to Megacolor, The Film Unit and Chilefilms for their help in this project.
Reproduction of the image is prohibited. Please solicit a written permission.
Best Regards,
Daniel Henriquez Ilic
contact : micro8@mixmail.com ; danilobox@mail.com
2K scan of Pro8/12 stock (s8 DI research project, Chile)
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steve hyde
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Hey Daniel,
Thanks for posting the image, of the stocks you tested, I'm guessing that the 12 was your favorite. I'd like to know what your opinion of the other stocks was. I'd also like to know what method you used to attach the T* Zeiss to the camera.
On a more personal note, I was actually born in Chile, lived in many other countries (including Brazil where I worked at the now defunct FTC/finishouse post house) and ended up spending some of the time in my teen years (early to mid 90's) interning at Chilefilms, mostly at the Rank Ursa and the Turbo suite. If you see Christian Aguilar (if he's even the tech/manager anymore) send him my regards.
I also met Francisca a few years back, she might remember me through my association with Rafaella Frigerio (actress Claudia di Girolamo's) daughter.
I'm glad to see FONDART is helping out and funding some projects and experiments!
Thanks for posting the image, of the stocks you tested, I'm guessing that the 12 was your favorite. I'd like to know what your opinion of the other stocks was. I'd also like to know what method you used to attach the T* Zeiss to the camera.
On a more personal note, I was actually born in Chile, lived in many other countries (including Brazil where I worked at the now defunct FTC/finishouse post house) and ended up spending some of the time in my teen years (early to mid 90's) interning at Chilefilms, mostly at the Rank Ursa and the Turbo suite. If you see Christian Aguilar (if he's even the tech/manager anymore) send him my regards.
I also met Francisca a few years back, she might remember me through my association with Rafaella Frigerio (actress Claudia di Girolamo's) daughter.
I'm glad to see FONDART is helping out and funding some projects and experiments!
/Matthew Greene/
Hello,
Thanks.
Actually I am doing a little technical short-feature that will be released on 35mm (using 2242 intermediate at the film recording stage). This short-feature explores some potential of the format, including digital composition through chroma keying. There is no global story, but each scene is coherent in itself.
I will be releasing here, motion down-converted resolution clip later (february). What I can tell you, is that the video transfer to SDTV prior to scan the original footage to 2K, don't show a lot of fine details (including color details) that we can really see on the 2K sequence !
Concerning stocks, I just have received custom loads of Pro8/05 and did not test that stock yet.
Concerning the tested stocks (vision2 100T, vision2 200T, vision2 500T, vision2 500T one stop push processed), and seen on 35mm, the v2 100T appears to have less granulation. But the vision2 200T was close. Vision2 500T clearly appeared to have much more granulation, but still having good resolution. The same was true for the v2 500T as ISO 1000, where granulation was extremeley apparent but it was still noticeable to see the fine patterns of the Century test chart. Also this stock was able to capture very low light intensity as Roscoglo paint. (at low camera speed).
About the lens : They are a photographic Carl Zeiss lens for 135 format (Contax or Yashica camera). I bought a SLR lens adapter in Century Optics (code LA YCC Contax to C-mount, cost : USD 70). Of course the lens is transformed to an ultra-tele lens... but the quality is really fine.
I am working with a 25mm, 50mm and 85mm. For wide-shot my only option is to switch to the 6/66 c-mount zoom.
In the digital intermediate early test I compared the behaviour of the Carl Zeiss prime and the Schenider zoom, with the same shot, and subject size relation within the image... and that seen on the big screen on 35mm, showed clearly that the the Schneider image was softer.
To Sarmoti : I will send your regards to Cristián Aguilar (he is Chilefilms Development Manager) and to Francisca. Actually 2004 was the first and last year that FONDART included a fund for technical/creative research... now, with the new cine law in Chile, these initiatives will be held by "Fondo de Fomento Audiovisual" a branch of the new Consejo del Arte y la Industria Audiovisual.
Regards,
Daniel
Thanks.
Actually I am doing a little technical short-feature that will be released on 35mm (using 2242 intermediate at the film recording stage). This short-feature explores some potential of the format, including digital composition through chroma keying. There is no global story, but each scene is coherent in itself.
I will be releasing here, motion down-converted resolution clip later (february). What I can tell you, is that the video transfer to SDTV prior to scan the original footage to 2K, don't show a lot of fine details (including color details) that we can really see on the 2K sequence !
Concerning stocks, I just have received custom loads of Pro8/05 and did not test that stock yet.
Concerning the tested stocks (vision2 100T, vision2 200T, vision2 500T, vision2 500T one stop push processed), and seen on 35mm, the v2 100T appears to have less granulation. But the vision2 200T was close. Vision2 500T clearly appeared to have much more granulation, but still having good resolution. The same was true for the v2 500T as ISO 1000, where granulation was extremeley apparent but it was still noticeable to see the fine patterns of the Century test chart. Also this stock was able to capture very low light intensity as Roscoglo paint. (at low camera speed).
About the lens : They are a photographic Carl Zeiss lens for 135 format (Contax or Yashica camera). I bought a SLR lens adapter in Century Optics (code LA YCC Contax to C-mount, cost : USD 70). Of course the lens is transformed to an ultra-tele lens... but the quality is really fine.
I am working with a 25mm, 50mm and 85mm. For wide-shot my only option is to switch to the 6/66 c-mount zoom.
In the digital intermediate early test I compared the behaviour of the Carl Zeiss prime and the Schenider zoom, with the same shot, and subject size relation within the image... and that seen on the big screen on 35mm, showed clearly that the the Schneider image was softer.
To Sarmoti : I will send your regards to Cristián Aguilar (he is Chilefilms Development Manager) and to Francisca. Actually 2004 was the first and last year that FONDART included a fund for technical/creative research... now, with the new cine law in Chile, these initiatives will be held by "Fondo de Fomento Audiovisual" a branch of the new Consejo del Arte y la Industria Audiovisual.
Regards,
Daniel
Hiya...
Here is the link with the camera set-up without the matte-box
http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... assic_pro8
Regards,
Daniel
Here is the link with the camera set-up without the matte-box
http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/gal ... assic_pro8
Regards,
Daniel
Thanks for the post, for a moment, when you said Zeiss T* I was envisioning Zeiss cine primes.
I know you say that detail is there from the scan that doesn't show up on an SD telecine. I however, scaled your image down to SD and compared it side-by-side with the 2k at equivalent sizes on my Sony FDM-520 and see very little (almost insignificant) detail above SD resolution. Again, the still you provided isn't the best content to judge sharpness or resolution but I'm wondering how a transfer through the Shadow at Flying Spot Seattle might compare to your scan, maybe even at HD res.
Have you tried a grain reduction algorithm on some footage? Since the S8 grain is so coarse it needs some adjustment. I have a former Chilean business partner in a company called Betaprod S.A., his name is Juan Concha and he's great with this kind of thing, he also loves this kind of project. You might try and give him a call in Santiago at 245-5135 or 09-479-6946 cell.
I doubt Francisca knew me by name (maybe as "el gringo") but I'll bet Cristian remembers me from the early 90's if you mention that I came in through Kodak Chile.
I know you say that detail is there from the scan that doesn't show up on an SD telecine. I however, scaled your image down to SD and compared it side-by-side with the 2k at equivalent sizes on my Sony FDM-520 and see very little (almost insignificant) detail above SD resolution. Again, the still you provided isn't the best content to judge sharpness or resolution but I'm wondering how a transfer through the Shadow at Flying Spot Seattle might compare to your scan, maybe even at HD res.
Have you tried a grain reduction algorithm on some footage? Since the S8 grain is so coarse it needs some adjustment. I have a former Chilean business partner in a company called Betaprod S.A., his name is Juan Concha and he's great with this kind of thing, he also loves this kind of project. You might try and give him a call in Santiago at 245-5135 or 09-479-6946 cell.
I doubt Francisca knew me by name (maybe as "el gringo") but I'll bet Cristian remembers me from the early 90's if you mention that I came in through Kodak Chile.
/Matthew Greene/
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Santo
Hello Matthew,
The point is that if you scale down a 2k data resolution file to a SDTV scale... you are still seeing a 2k quality that has been only scaled down.
Prior to the 2k scanner stage, I had to transfer to SDTV the super8 original negative footage in order to see the footage for the first time, after ECN-2 development and ultrasonic cleaning.
So the transfer film to SDTV tape (that was done in EstudiosMega, Sao Paulo) was done on a one light basis, through an Ursa Diamond (without Y-Front) and DUI 8:8:8 color enhancement device. That way it was then possible to generate an EDL for the 2k scanner step.
The detail and overall quality available from the SDTV output is really inferior to what we got from the 2K output.
Concerning grain reduction algorithm.... really I prefer to not use that, and assume that this is super8. The only stage where we may use a bit of that is at the scanning stage.
A curious but logical point is that the grain appearance you see on the 2K frame posted on the gallery is more apparent when you see the image as a still (or digital still) than when we saw it on 35mm projection.... It was a very nice grain sensation, really.
With Best Regards,
Daniel Henriquez Ilic
The point is that if you scale down a 2k data resolution file to a SDTV scale... you are still seeing a 2k quality that has been only scaled down.
Prior to the 2k scanner stage, I had to transfer to SDTV the super8 original negative footage in order to see the footage for the first time, after ECN-2 development and ultrasonic cleaning.
So the transfer film to SDTV tape (that was done in EstudiosMega, Sao Paulo) was done on a one light basis, through an Ursa Diamond (without Y-Front) and DUI 8:8:8 color enhancement device. That way it was then possible to generate an EDL for the 2k scanner step.
The detail and overall quality available from the SDTV output is really inferior to what we got from the 2K output.
Concerning grain reduction algorithm.... really I prefer to not use that, and assume that this is super8. The only stage where we may use a bit of that is at the scanning stage.
A curious but logical point is that the grain appearance you see on the 2K frame posted on the gallery is more apparent when you see the image as a still (or digital still) than when we saw it on 35mm projection.... It was a very nice grain sensation, really.
With Best Regards,
Daniel Henriquez Ilic
Hello Matthew,
Yes... no Edge Code onto the super 8 original media... but... if you transfer to video (on a set-up as decribed before, similar or better) and ... don't cut or splice anything to the super8 roll after that transfer, you will be able to match again the shots you need to scan, but matching first the "punch" at the beginning of the super8 reel, when doing the 2k or HD scan. In order for you to do that, it is important that the punch that is at the beginning of each reel (a very little hole or a point, cross written by a film pen by the colorist) is also transferred to your videotape, so that it have a timecode...
So then you only need to edit your SD footage and make an EDL (CMX 3600) that considers C sort mode (source in) in order to be ready to send your footage to be scanned. Of course double checking is very important as the 2K scanning step is some kind of high-end film service.
It also possible to translate a NTSC edit to PAL EDL as done in this early test footage, but it is a bit more complex. So if you need a PAL EDL, it will be easier to do a PAL transfer first, vice-versa for NTSC.
Regards,
Daniel
Yes... no Edge Code onto the super 8 original media... but... if you transfer to video (on a set-up as decribed before, similar or better) and ... don't cut or splice anything to the super8 roll after that transfer, you will be able to match again the shots you need to scan, but matching first the "punch" at the beginning of the super8 reel, when doing the 2k or HD scan. In order for you to do that, it is important that the punch that is at the beginning of each reel (a very little hole or a point, cross written by a film pen by the colorist) is also transferred to your videotape, so that it have a timecode...
So then you only need to edit your SD footage and make an EDL (CMX 3600) that considers C sort mode (source in) in order to be ready to send your footage to be scanned. Of course double checking is very important as the 2K scanning step is some kind of high-end film service.
It also possible to translate a NTSC edit to PAL EDL as done in this early test footage, but it is a bit more complex. So if you need a PAL EDL, it will be easier to do a PAL transfer first, vice-versa for NTSC.
Regards,
Daniel
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Carlos 8mm
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Hi Daniel,
Amazing!
I never seen a Super 8 frame with this sharpness and very low grain like this one.
I like your Project, I think it will very useful to demostrate the high quality of Super 8 format for those who want to shoot for the first time, and videomakers too.
Good for Megacolor Laboratories of Brazil. I can´t understand why most important laboratories of my country still don´t develop S8 negative film.
Carlos.
Amazing!
I never seen a Super 8 frame with this sharpness and very low grain like this one.
I like your Project, I think it will very useful to demostrate the high quality of Super 8 format for those who want to shoot for the first time, and videomakers too.
Good for Megacolor Laboratories of Brazil. I can´t understand why most important laboratories of my country still don´t develop S8 negative film.
Carlos.
Wouldn't the best way to do that be by removing the pulldown from the telecine workprint tape and editing with a 24fps timebase to export an EDL from that? Then in the Datacine setting your punch frame to 0 and scanning from there? I wonder what your thoughts/experience are on that.
/Matthew Greene/