Question for Dodcap Users

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Re: PAL

Post by Andreas Wideroe »

digvid wrote:For those of you living in PAL-land: can you export back to DV from your computer? I thought I understood that there was some issue in EU countries with DV cameras not accepting an incoming DV signal for recording. If this is the case, I need to consider how this will affect Dodcap.
Yes you can. If there are any problems, someone else fill me in please. I've never had any problems besides incompatiable hardware/cameras and stuff...

Actually what I do when I want to export to a DV tape from Premiere I put the timeline marker to the start, hit rec on my Panasonic NVMX300 camera and press play in Premiere. That works fine. However, I can't print to tape - atleast not from Premiere 6.0 with this camera.

/Andreas
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Re: PAL

Post by mattias »

awand wrote:
digvid wrote:For those of you living in PAL-land: can you export back to DV from your computer?
Yes you can. If there are any problems, someone else fill me in please.
the problem is that many of the cheaper cameras have this feature disabled to avoid having to pay the small import fee that actually exists. ask when you buy a camera. they'll know what you're talking about.

/matt
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DV In

Post by digvid »

Mattias -

Yes, that is what I was referring to. With these "disabled" cameras, can you play a signal from the computer out to the camera and manually press the record buttons, like Andreas does? Or can the camera not record from an incoming signal at all? Also, do many people have these cameras, or do most purchase the more expensive DV-In-Enable cameras?

- Jeff
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Post by Andreas Wideroe »

No you can not - those cameras won't accept incoming signals at all. They don't have DV-in enabled. However, this is something you shouldn't worry about at all. People know what their cameras can do. (DV-in is about $500-$1000 more expensive).

/Andreas
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Post by sigr »

Hi Jeff,

I just read through the latest posts in this thread (since last night EST). Here is my input:

· Dodcap is a great program – thanks for providing it!
· It should be kept simple and not be expanded to a video editor.

Basic functions that should be included in addition to the functionality of Version 1.22:

· The ability to step frame-by-frame through a capture.
· The ability to output to DV.
· The ability to record to DV. Without this feature I would have to load the captured AVI file into a video editor, such as Premiere. It’s not that that is impossible, but it makes Dodcap less attractive for my purposes.

Additional recommended features:

· Ability to trim the beginning and end of the clip (captured from the WorkPrinter)
· Ability to delete or replace unwanted/bad single frames

The impression I get is that the latter two features in some peoples minds would make Dodcap into a video editor. From my perspective the functionality of a video program that makes it into a video editor is the ability to rearrange clips. If this functionality is not present, we are not talking about a video editor. However, since some people may not want these features, I would suggest that you make them optional when the software is installed. Alternatively, you could provide them as a separate plug-in. The functionality of Dodcap should be capped at that – period!

Just like some of the other users, I currently output and store my converted films in the following two ways:
· DV tape (Digital8 in my case)
· CD-R
In addition, I’m experimenting with VCD and SVCD formats for distribution to others (typically family and friends). I particularly like the SVCD format (MPEG-2), since the visual quality is not that different from AVI. Also, it requires only about one tenth the storage space and CD-Rs are cheap!

Finally, thanks very much for listening to all of us and for doing your best to accommodate our somewhat divergent views!

Regards,
Sig
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Post by S8 Booster »

awand wrote:No you can not - those cameras won't accept incoming signals at all. They don't have DV-in enabled. However, this is something you shouldn't worry about at all. People know what their cameras can do. (DV-in is about $500-$1000 more expensive).

/Andreas
There are some ways to enable DV in (and more) on some of the cams by more methods.

One is to buy a "widget" that connects to the cam and open the "box".
Another way is to download free software to the computer to do the same - more complex but the cost is possibly zil.

A few links:
http://www.coastweb.de/dv/index.htm#dvin

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... ures5.html

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content ... le/1464.6/
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content ... le/1464.1/

http://free-zg.hinet.hr/enable_dvin/Home_Page.htm

http://free-zg.hinet.hr/enable_dvin/How_to_do_it.htm

The are many more pages about this if you search the net.

R
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Post by studiocarter »

My camera is a Hi-8mm and it has the ability to record from a television set input. So, recording from the computer works, too, albet in a wierd way.
My video card is the AIW 128 and has a TV tuner (ntsc); in order to output, I go to control panel, display, advanced, and choose the television as a display device. Then the computer changes the screen resolution automatically, screwing up the monitor display but making a full screen television signal. Premiere is then used in the export to tape full screen function (be sure to select full screen or it is a small image in black field). The project is saved onto Hi-8 tape, MP tape has a longer life than ME which is for editing.
I make SVCD disks of my projects for viewing off an Apex DVD player. When I want to make a VHS tape, I play the DVD SVCD into the VHS and make a copy. It looks better that way than from the camera.

My own projects get a lot of editing and I no longer do work for home movie transfer customers.

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Thanks

Post by digvid »

Thanks for all the info and ideas, guys.

The final feature list for Dodcap 1.30 looks like this:

- New media player with frame-stepping & slo-mo
- New batch post-processing module
- DV playback and/or record in media player
- Big speed improvement when using specific compression codec
- Group PAL & NTSC pulldown options separately to avoid confusion
- Adding "burned-in" timecode in overscan area as post-processing option

I am not sure that many people will use the timecode feature, but it is cool so I am putting it in anyway! In any case, it will not make the product any harder to use, and it could be a useful tool for verifying how the pulldown schemes work. In any case, I have tested it and the timecode is quite readable, and yet it is well within the overscan area of a television set, so it is only visible if you play it on your computer. You will be able to choose Super8 feet+frames, Regular8 feet+frames, non-drop frame, drop-frame, frames, etc.

The batch post-processing module will allow you to select a whole list of files and apply the same pulldown operations to them. In other words, you only have to set the pulldown options once, and it will perform them on all the files, presumably while you are away from the computer. You will also be able to fine-tune the settings for each file separately if you wish, in case you want interpolated pulldown with some and whole-frame with the others. The module will display progress as well, so you will be able to see which items have completed, percentage done on the item currently being processed, and which are still pending. You will also be able to halt processing and make modifications to items still pending, then resume processing.

One question though: Should this perhaps be a separate app so that you can run it on a different computer than the one you are using for video capture? If you are fortunate enough to have two computers, it seems like you could save some time by capturing, moving your files to another computer (where you run the batch processing), then doing more captures while the batch processing runs.

Later!

- Jeff
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Editing

Post by digvid »

Oh, and one more thing. I have still been experimenting with editing options, and thinking about how it would affect the workflow of using Dodcap. I definitely don't want to tackle this in 1.30, but I will pursue putting it in the following release.

Technically, I have worked out a way to allow the deletion of a range of frames or individual frames, and for replacing individual frames with adjacent ones. This is a feature that would be very useful to me personally. I sometimes like using my camera in auto exposure mode, but I desperately want to delete those pesky bright frames that occur at the beginning of a scene change. I would be willing to bet that that is what most people would use the feature for. I will reiterate though that this feature is not intended to delete blurred frames. Dodcap has had significant speed improvements in the last two releases that most everyone should be able to resolve blurred-frame problems by selecting the right settings in Dodcap and properly calibrating your WorkPrinter.

- Jeff
Streetwise

Post by Streetwise »

Jeff,

What is the ETA of 1.30?

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ETA

Post by digvid »

I'm thinking right at the end of January or beginning of February. Everything is coded except the batch processing module. Then I will need a few days to test and update the documentation, then I'll release.

- Jeff
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Post by Andreas Wideroe »

Sounds great Jeff! I played around with Dodcap last night, captured some films and the preview window is great, the program is easy (all you need kinda thing) and the pulldown thing is so cool!

I was actually just about to ask you if you could include a batch processing tool in the next release - and you are! That's awesome. I don't think you need to make it an external app since you can just install Dodcap on both of your computers I think and perform one capture while the other pulls down. :D

By the way, I haven't quite made the pulldown work 100% yet. Actually films shot at 18fps will be a bit "jumpy" after a pulldown. I've tried both with and without interpolation. Still I'm not 100% happy with the results. Any inside tweak tips availeble?

Also, when Dodcap says 18fps on PAL video, that means it transforms 18fps into 25fps, right?

Cheers - and keep up the great work!
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18 fps Pulldown

Post by digvid »

Andreas -
Also, when Dodcap says 18fps on PAL video, that means it transforms 18fps into 25fps, right?
No, for PAL Dodcap converts 18 fps to 24 fps and places the result in a file that plays back at 25 fps. So your final file will play back slightly faster than the original film. If you can come up with a pattern that truly converts 18 fps to 25 fps, you can override the default one as detailed in the documentation appendix.
By the way, I haven't quite made the pulldown work 100% yet. Actually films shot at 18fps will be a bit "jumpy" after a pulldown. I've tried both with and without interpolation.
When you tried the interpolated pulldown, did you view the results on your computer screen or a television monitor? The interpolated pulldown only looks correct on the TV. It will look weird if you view it on the computer monitor.

18 fps to both PAL and NTSC presents certain challenges. The goal for PAL is to convert every three film frames into four video frames. So film frames ABC will become something like AABC. This is exactly the pattern Dodcap uses for 18 fps --> PAL if you use the whole-frame pulldown. If you want to smooth things out, you have to look at things in terms of fields instead of frames. The above pattern in fields is AtAb AtAb BtBb CtCb, where Xt=top field and Xb=bottom field. The goal in smoothing things out is to minimize the difference in the number of fields from each frame shown. For this pattern the current field count is 4 fields of frame A, 2 of frame b, and 2 of frame C. The only thing I can think of to smooth things out is to take a field from frame A and give it to frame B, like this: AtAb AtBb BtBb CtCb. Now the field count is 3 fields from frame A, 3 from frame B, and 2 from frame C, or 332. So compare the two methods: the whole frame method is 422 and the interpolated method is 332. Both represent 8 fields (or 4 frames) of video from three original film frames. Theoretically the 332 pattern should look smoother than 422 because the transition from 3 fields to 2 fields is less severe than from 4 to 2. Does this make sense? Anyway, this is the smoothest pattern I could think of for interpolated pulldown. Also, you have to remember that the 332 pattern only looks proper when viewed on a television monitor.
Still I'm not 100% happy with the results. Any inside tweak tips availeble?
Dodcap does allow you to override the default pulldown patterns. Look in the appendix of the Dodcap documentation and it explains how to do this. I was afraid someone would not like certain patterns, so I added the override capability. If you can come up with a pattern that looks/works better, you are welcome to override it, and let me know as well. I might want to replace the one that is there now if yours is better!

Hope this helps! Let me know if you experiment with other pulldown patterns. In Dodcap's defense, all I can say is that A) I am always open to suggestions, and B) at least you can override the default settings if you wish!

Thanks for the suggestions/comments!

- Jeff Dodson
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Re: 18 fps Pulldown

Post by mattias »

digvid wrote:AtAb AtBb BtBb CtCb
this might be your problem. pal is lower field first, so the correct pattern would be:

AtAb *BtAb* BtBb CtCb

this plays as Ab At Ab Bt Bb Bt Cb Ct on a pal monitor, which i believe is what you were trying to achieve.

/matt
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Mind Boggling

Post by digvid »

Wow! We could start a whole new thread just debating how field-dominance works! After reading your post Mattias, I sat down and tried to remember exactly how field-dominance works and it made my brain hurt. I searched on the net too, and found that there are about 8 million conflicting opinions about how it works, and no definite answers that I could find.

By the way, digital video (DV) on NTSC is almost always lower-field dominant as well, yet the patterns I listed worked fine in my NTSC television. When I first implemented the interpolated (i.e., interlaced) pulldown, my reasoning was the same as yours. Since NTSC is lower-field dominant, I should build interlaced pulldown frames like this: BtAb. However, when played back on my TV this produced a jerking pattern that was obviously wrong! I then switched it to something like: AtAb AtBb BtBb, etc., and found that it smoothed out.

Here is why I believe this happens:

Let's say Dodcap captures two frames of video from the DV camera, frames A and B. What Dodcap receives are actually whole, progressive frames, not individual fields. I'm not saying this is what comes out of the camera, I am saying that by the time Dodcap receives it, it is just a progressive frame. So in that sense, field order does not matter. Whether your TV is PAL or NTSC, it will always display every other line starting with the first line, then every other line starting with the second. So if I build frames that look like: AA AB BB, I am guaranteed that they will display in the proper order.

I believe that it is only if you split a frame into two fields and store it that way in a file or other medium, then allow edits that can split a frame in two, that field dominance becomes meaningful.

This is the best explanation that I can make, and it does seem to work on my NTSC TV. However, I don't have a PAL TV at my disposal, so I would love to hear further discussion if I have it wrong.

Andreas, does the jerkiness of your footage when displayed on TV look like a field-dominance problem, or is it just that some frames seem to be displayed longer than others? Field dominance problems are usually easy to spot because, for instance, a person walking will appear to move forward then slightly back, etc.

- Jeff Dodson
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