Shooting a Scene Where People Watch a Projected Movie

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:54 pm

Tomorrow night (Friday) I'm shooting a short low-key scene where two characters watch a projected film. The shot calls for medium shots of the two sitting by the projector and some POV shots of the projected image on a Radiant screen.

I'm using Tri-X (underexposed by a quarter F-stop) in a Leicina Super (lens with a F-stop of 1.9). For lighting, I'm toying with the idea of using two 250-watt kickers to light the faces of the actors. This should be enough for individual closeups but I'm concerned about a medium master shot of the two sitting by the projector (the shot will consist of the two actors sitting by the projector; the camera will be about three-four feet away from the projector. The projector gives off some light of its own from the side vents. It's equipped with a 150-watt bulb and the lights from the side vent are bright enough to dimly see the inching knob, fps knob, sound knobs, etc.

For the POV shots of the projected image, the camera will be about ten feet away from the screen (My dining room opens up on the living room; I'm placing the screen at one end of the living room and the projector on the dining room table.) I'm zooming in enough to see the image closely but not enough to crop out the screen and surrounding furniture entirely. Given my camera, is this feasible? Will I be able to get a discernable image?

Sorry if I'm posting this at the last moment instead of trying it myself, but I've been busy all week and it's only now that I've had the time to pose the question.

Tom

Post by **tfunch24** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:56 pm

The above post was from me. I forgot to login.

Tom

Post by **Chewbaccaelnino** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:50 am

Good question, sorry i dont know the awnser. but please somone reply if you know how this would look (i have a similar shot planned for my movie)

Post by **crimsonson** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:37 am

You will get inconsistent flicker since I assume your camera nor the projector are crystal sync'ed. If you ever watched movies with scenes of projected films you will notice that the movies itself are in sync with the camera [no or very low flicker]. Only when there is a shot of the actors face for example, we see the *illusion* of flicker. The flicker will most likely be distracting because of our natural tendency to *resolve* motion. [Cider House Rules while watching the King Kong movie is a good example]. Add to the fact the flicker will vary since the projector AND the camera can change their speed up and/or down...

You may want to do this in post instead or rethink the shot.

Maybe somebody else can help. I never shot anything when both projector [or TV or computer screen] and camera are wild.

Post by **S8 Booster** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 8:58 am

Never tried this so it is only sort of an idea.

Quasi blue screen job.

If you end up on DV format editing in for example Premiere it will be possible to superimpose another film (track) at the screen image area of your film in post production, considering the view angle of the imposed film is identical or moditied to fit.

This is fairly simple in Premiere.

You may project a totally blank film on the screen but it is not nessescary to use blank. It might be easier to work with in the post though. Totally blanks film could be bought in the old days and i still think they are available from some German suppliers.

It is also possible to make one your self if required.

Projecting blank film will add a lot more light in the room for exposure. Might not be the right angle but could add some fill function.

Should work well with some jig saw puzzle efforts.

R

Post by **Jonathan** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:17 pm

I think flicker shouldn't be much of a problem if you use a camera with XL shutter. I am not so sure about the Leicina, though.
I tried filming a projected film myself using a Canon 310 XL with Ektachrome 7240. I believe flicker and exposure were no problem. The projected film was a 16mm film, but I can't remember which projector it was. Unfortunately I can't tell you more details right now how the image looked like since I did this about 1 1/2 years ago. I'll dig out that roll and look it up, but this would be next week...

Best regards,

Jonathan.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:03 pm

crimsonson wrote:You will get inconsistent flicker since I assume your camera nor the projector are crystal sync'ed.

Crystal synching the camera and projector will only help if:

a) There is only one shutter blade in the projector

b) The camera and projector are in phase with each other

Otherwise, shooting with the projector running at 24fps and an XL camera with a 220 degree shutter at 18fps will give passable results. I mean it will still have a slight pulsing to the light but will look pretty much like film being projected on a screen for the sake of story telling without the pulsing being too distracting.

(forgot to log in)
Roger

Post by **tfunch24** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 8:51 pm

Thank you all for your replies.

I posted this question on Hostboard and Roger Evans suggested a method to get a flicker-free POV shot of the projected movie in post. It involves snapping a photograph of the screen from the POV of where the S8 camera would stand. After the photo is developed, cut out the projected area on the screen. You then tape the photograph to the condenser lens, position your DV camera, and then run the movie that the characters are watching through the WorkPrinter or CineMate. Voila!

As long as no one is standing in the POV shot of the screen (and no one will), it should work.

Tom

Post by **studiocarter** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:09 pm

My film called "The Find" shows a Regular 8mm cartoon being projected in the film. It doesn't flicker. I think it was shot with S8 at 18fps and the cartoon was a Regular 8mm projection, that mush I am sure of.

MAC
(Michael A. Carter)

tfunch24 being lazy · Post by **tfunch24 being lazy** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:38 am

Did it.

The only thing I did differently was I used a Bell & Howell Filmosonic XL camera (220-degree shutter, fast 1.3 lens). I also used the method that Roger suggested on Hostboard except instead of taking a photo of the screen I filmed the projected image directly off the screen. When the film comes back, I'll capture a still of the screen to my computer, print out a high-quality copy, and then cut out the "projected image area" of the screen. Having done that, I will tape the printout to the screen and run the original projected film through my CineMate. Voila! A flickerless projected image!

Hopefully it will work.

To see what I'm talking about, click this link and read Moviestuff's first reply:

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima ... 409&t=2939

Tom

Post by **S8 Booster** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 11:12 am

Just put togehter a sample from a random still and a random clip in Adobe Premier to see how it worked out. This could easily be done from 2 movie clips as well.

Due to the fact that I run AP 4.0 from 1994 on the Jaguar X some of the functions do not work properly (even some menus donÃ‚Â´t - time for an upgrade?) like AP like chroma, alpha channels etc so the stuff shown is a bit inacurate but it could work without too much effort.

10 sec clip:
ftp://ftp.filmshooting.com/upload/video/mp4/IMPOSE.mov

R

Post by **MovieStuff** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:45 pm

tfunch24 being lazy wrote: instead of taking a photo of the screen I filmed the projected image directly off the screen. When the film comes back, I'll capture a still of the screen to my computer, print out a high-quality copy, and then cut out the "projected image area" of the screen. Having done that, I will tape the printout to the screen and run the original projected film through my CineMate. Voila! A flickerless projected image!

Hmmm. Not sure why you bothered to shoot the screen, since that will most definately produce flicker. The whole idea was to avoid shooting the actual projected image full size but, rather, to reduce the image so that you had better exposure. Granted, this could all be done digitally but the idea of putting a print from a 35mm camera on your condenser lens was so that you could digitize the actual film directly at size with no flicker and the edge where the film image was would not look "electronic" like it often does when compositing digitally.

However, if I was going to do this electronically, I think I would cover the sceen with black velvet and shoot that separately. Then I would play that footage and mark my tv monitor with a dry marker where the screen was. Then I would copy the footage off a smaller projected image to get good illumination but make sure the image is aligned with the marked area on the TV monitor and turn off all lights so that the image was floating in a sea of black. In Premier, I would use the "screen" transparency filter to combine the to together, which would avoid the electronic "cut out" effect that so often appears in compositing.

At any rate, there are probably a half dozen different ways to achieve this effect. Let us know how your method turns out!

Roger

tfunch24 being lazy · Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:14 pm

Well, the film won't come back from the lab for another week or so (I'm dropping it off for processing on Monday) therefore I could still snap a 35mm still of the screen and get that processed by the time the S8 film gets back.

I'll try both methods and post stills if anyone is interested.

S8 Booster,

That's a nice shot--even if you did cut off the guy's head! Unfortunately, I don't have Premiere.

Tom

S8 Booster NLI · Post by **S8 Booster NLI** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:20 pm

tfunch24 being lazy wrote:
S8 Booster,

That's a nice shot--even if you did cut off the guy's head! Unfortunately, I don't have Premiere.

Tom

Yes, that was a throughaway test not bothering about some cut off heads!If it was for real, obstacles vs the screen has to be avoided to simplify the job of course. The l"ive" film area is covering the real screen on the wall.

R

S8B

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:19 am

its crap like this cinemate or workprinter or whatever the hell you call it thats killing super 8. why the hell would anyone want to transfer to video tell me why? a projected film cut is so much better and if you don't see it that way, then get a dv camera and get off this board.

get some common sense people.