Are Fuji neg 500/800 films much finer grained than the Kodak

[S8 Booster]

Are the Fuji neg 500/800 films much finer grained than the Kodak stocks?

Browsing the Fuji WEB I was looking for an old favourite of mine a professional 800ASA PRO 35mm photo film it became apparent that this film stock has a RMS Granularity of about 4.0. This is, if comparable to the K40 data less than half the grain size. The same value is given for their 500ASA motion film stock.

I believe this is much better than the Kodak/PRO8mm film stock I recently tested. If this is correct, would that be something for S8? It is actually half grain size of Provia 100F reversal too.

Check: http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartn ... 6&product=

I have always fancied the 800 for its "invisible" grain size and fast speed turning the "instamatic" type 35mm cams with built in flash to long range phantoms.

Anybody have comments/knowledge on this?

R



Previously posted data for K40 / P100 / P400:

http://www.8mm.filmshooting.com/scripts ... .php?t=630

Recently I bought a special batch Fuji Provia 100F for S8 and are now examining the specs for the P100F and the K40. Are the Fuji specs comparable to the specs Kodak offers for the K40? Anybody who knows?


Fuji reveals as follows for the P100F: http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartn ... ct=2302805
Fujichrome Provia 100F Professional (RDPIII)
Super-Fine Sigma-Crystal Technology, Micro-Grain Solubility Control Technology,
Unprecedented Granularity of 8
Diffuse rms Granularity value: 8
Micro denstiometer Measurement Aperture: 48um in diameter
Sample density: 1.0 above minimum density

(Fuji spec for the P400F is:
Diffuse rms Granularity value: 15
Micro denstiometer Measurement Aperture: 48um in diameter
Sample density: 1.0 above minimum density.)


Are the Fuji specs comparable to the Kodakchrome K40:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/produ ... tml#imgstr

Technical Data
KODACHROME 40 Movie Film (Type A) - 7268 / 7270
Image Structure
(Process K-14)
Diffuse rms Granularity: 9
Extremely Fine

Read at a gross diffuse visual density of 1.0, 48-micrometer aperture.



For reference only:

Technical Data

EASTMAN EKTACHROME Film (Tungsten) 5240/7240

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/produ ... .shtml#H15

Image Structure

The modulation-transfer curves, the diffuse rms granularity, and the resolving power data were generated from samples of Film 5240 exposed with tungsten light and processed as recommended in Process VNF-1 chemicals. For more information on image-structure characteristics, see KODAK Publication No. H-1, EASTMAN Professional Motion Picture Films.

Diffuse RMS Granularity* 12
*Read at a net diffuse visual density of 1.0, using a 48-micrometer aperture.


?

[Carlos 8mm]

I don´t know why Kodak does not publish the granularity (RMS) of many of its products, specially Vision Stock. Perhaps this granularity is too high. T- Grain technology has more than 10 or 15 years old, therefore I think its time is over.

Some months ago, a guy told me that Agfa discovered a method to excite the silver halures that increases up to 10 times its sensitivity. Apparently the silver grain is excited in several faces (Just like a polygon) They obtained a ISO 8000 film with a same granularity of an actual ISO 400 film. May be the Fuji´s new technology is based on a similar discovery.


Carlos.

[S8 Booster]

Fuji refer to a "hexagon" structure for their silver halide configs.
Maybe it is the same?

The 64 ASA is down to 2.5 RMS granular value, almost 1/4th of the K40!

brochure for download:
http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartn ... /F-64D.pdf

R

[Carlos 8mm]

Another information about Fujichrome Provia 100F Professional (RDPIII):
(ISO 100 Dayligth reversal film)
Resolving power (maximun): 140 lines per mm!

Kodachrome K-40: Resolving Power (maximun): 100 lines per mm

(In the present Kodak´s Web Site this information you can´t find it, but some months ago they published it. ¿¿??

I was wondering if the new Kodak stock Ektachrome 100D has similars characteristic to fujichrome Provia 100F Pro (In my opinion, I guess not)

We only must make some tests to compare these materials.

Carlos.

[David M. Leugers]

Kodak publishes very exhaustive information about the grain and other characteristics of all their motion picture stock on their website. Most you have to read a graph instead of a simple figure such as 9 for Kodachrome. Just remember, grain size is just one factor to consider when deciding on a proper film stock for your project. I personally do not think it is the most important. For small gauge film especially the 8mm formats, sharpness, resolving power, and the more esoteric attributes such as color (or range of tones for B+W), contrast and even if the stock is reversal so that it is projectable come into play. For archival purposes, Kodachrome rules the world. Just to make a point about grain, I happen to like grain when it is tight and not blotchy as long as the film image is sharp. It can look pretty cool and gives a different pallette for us to use. You'll notice that music videos often makes use of grainy images for effect. I think with all the advancements in film technology either already here or on the horizon, the future could be a lot of fun for us film makers!

[S8 Booster]

Agree with all of your views and information. I preffer reversal films too, particulary for projection. I love the K40 and expecting my first E125 back soon. Not afraid of grain either if only it has a homgen structure. I leven liked the E160!

However, when it comes to the negative film experiment I just did on the Kodak/PRO8 films I found it kind of "touchy" in the settings in which one could cause high grain while a little different exposure setting would produce very nice homogen grain.

From this, and my experience with the professional Fuji 800 ASA 35mm photo film I am as of now quite confident that the Fuji negs might be a better choice for the S8 than the current Kodak stock IF neg film is to be considered used with S8.

I am currently working on some scans to post. One is a frame from the PRO8 50D and one is a similar area size scanned from the 800 ASA neg film.

Unfortunately my scanner will not handle up to more than 2400 dpi originals (max 9600 dpi scan res) which do not justify any S8 image size but still the result for the 800 ASA is stunning. Absolutely no grain visible and it has a (to me) very likable texture. The 50D initial scan is visually grainy but here I still need to work out some scan details to be able to compare the two on an even basis.

All Fuji motion stock seem to be available in 16mm for reference.

R

[Carlos 8mm]

Hi all!!

S8 booster,

Do you have a negative /slide film scanner? what's the true optical resolution of this scanner? 2400dpi?

I think is necessary more optical resolution to adquire all the image quality of a S8 frame.

With a digital photo camera with a I.E. 2,1 Megapixels CCD and a conderser lens is possilbe to obtain a 1600x1200 dpi image size of a S8 frame.

In the last days I was thinking about this. To build a "workprinter"who captures each S8 frame with a Digital photo cam connected to my PC instead video camera and later construct the frame sequences in Adobe Premiere.
Just an idea. :idea:

Carlos.

[S8 Booster]

My scanner is a multipurpose Agfa e50, not the best for slides & neg but will do for most photo purposes though. For S8 frames however, it is not good enough. The image max res is 2400 dpi but the max scan res is 9600 dpi (?) but S8 look no good.

However, I scanned a 50D neg frame and a similar area of some 35mm Fuji G800 neg film showing details of 5.5x4.5mm from the same neg to get an impression on how the F800ASA compare to the K50D. Since the scanner can not resolve the grain in either case this is not really a proof of anything except to get an impression so here they are:

Frame from PRO8mm 50D DV film:


Scanned frame from original 50D neg. (Wonder how they managed the colours on the DV?) The neg seem to be too Bright. Rescanned with less brightness. Repost.


Have no idea of the funny colours. The 800 ASA comes out "normal" the same way.

Fuji G800, only small part of full 35mm frame. (5.5 x 4.5mm scan area). Scanned from negative.




Full 35mm negative frame from G800. (Location famous for the movie Heroes of? Telemark"). Real WWII battle site for Deuterium (D2O - a nucelar reaction retarder/controller). The remains of the actual plant visible in the background.

Different picture but exactly the same site same time. Scanned from negative.

Big image scanned from negative.: (300 dpi original scanner setting)
ftp://ftp.filmshooting.com/upload/pictu ... ark2RA.jpg

Info link on the site:
http://www.rjukan-turistkontor.no/uk/main.asp
(click the link "Vemork" left menu)

R

[Carlos 8mm]

Hi all!

S8 Booster,
I shot generally K-40, Ektachrome 125T and Vision 200T color stocks. But I never shot with Pro 8 50D stock.

In a video transfer, how does Pro 8 50D looks? Less (or more) grainy and less (or more) sharp than K-40 :?:

I´ll appreciate your reply.

(Yeah, I must improve my English!) :oops:

Cheers,

Carlos.

[S8 Booster]

Hi all!

S8 Booster,
I shot generally K-40, Ektachrome 125T and Vision 200T color stocks. But I never shot with Pro 8 50D stock.

In a video transfer, how does Pro 8 50D looks? Less (or more) grainy and less (or more) sharp than K-40 :?:

I´ll appreciate your reply.

(Yeah, I must improve my English!) :oops:

Cheers,

Carlos.

No problem with your English Carlos.

The 50D was a bit of a disappointment to me. There were some grainness in certain situations that I suspect is from the transfer technlogy.

The film was a bit "soft" in the contrast but that might be a result of the lens coating on my camera that seems optimzed for K40/reversal film.

Since the 50D is still a "slow" film the latitude isn´t that great either as I see it.

I see the 50D as no alternative to the K40 unless it is to be intercut with other negative films and want the films to match.

It was very jittery with my cam too. Propbably a pressureplate mismatch that can be eliminated.

My next "test" will be the V200T and the new V500T/2 when it gets available to see how they work out. The 250D has the best grain structure on my films.

If someone comes up with some low grain Fuji 200 or 500 in S8 carts I would like to try that too.

When film speeds is 200 ASA or more I found it very interesting to use because I got a very flexible system that almost compares to many modern video cameras in light sensitivity (500 ASA - XL mode) and there is a complete new world to explore with these films.

I always use reversal S8 films except for some very limited special purposes.

R

[Guest]

When I bought my first K-40 S8 cartridge, the salesman told me: " Vas a dar con tu culo en el suelo cuando veas la calidad de este material! ” (You´ll going to give with your ass in the ground when you´ll see the quality of this film!) (Or something like that ). And thus it was!

If Kodak begins to commercialize many of their Vision stocks in S8 cartridges, Pro8mm will have to considering other film stocks like Fuji or others.

Still I don´t understand why Pro8mm continues selling Vision 200T in 12 meters S8 cartridges (less than 15 meters Kodak cartridges) And possibly, (correct me if I´m mistaken) more expensive. :?

Carlos.

[S8 Booster]

We´ll se what happen with Kodak and negs. K40 is brilliant for sure.

PRO8MM sells the Vision 200T that is exact the same as Kodak V200T in lenghts of 15m (15,25m) / 50ft as can be seen below. It is the exact same product but I think prosessing is normally included (not transfer) at PRO8MM, not at Kodak.

I think you mix this with Kahl films that are often in 12 m lenghts in reloadable S8 cartridges, possibly caused by a thicker film base.



R

[Carlos 8mm]

Oops! 8O

Something rare happens!

I wrote the post above, not Guest! :?

Carlos (Very confused).

[Carlos 8mm]

Oops! I did it again! (Sorry, Britney)

A guy who sells S8 stock here has given me that info about Pro8mm cartridges.
Very bad informed guy...or not? (Aahh, you're roguish salesman!) :evil:

Anyway, sorry guys.

Carlos.

P.S.: About BrItney's song, I prefer Las Ketchup's song ASEREJE. Does anybody can sing that tongue twister? Cause I can't.

[S8 Booster]

Curiosity for those interested since it was actually shot two on location feature film on that actal site:

In conjunction to the picture I posted above I mentioned the that the site was a place where more commando and bomb raids were executed to stop the Germans from developing their A-bomb during WWII. Heavy water produced there could be used to control nuclear reaction to produce Plutonimum from Uranium if I remember correctly.

There were made two films on location later. One Norwegian BW and later (1965) one Hollywood! production in colour with Krik Douglas. Here is some info about the film and the actual story behind.

Film and background info.
http://beta.epinions.com/content_69116530308

R