Approximately one year and 7 months later this thread gets resurrected.
Never saw it the first time, interesting dilemma, any chance the original author could update the thread telling us what they ended up deciding?
moral dilema!!! film is beautiful, but...
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
Not read this thread, it's kind of funny, someone writes asking for help and advice and instead people jump on it as a platform to vent their views about the persons lifestyle! *giggle*
The internet is a very silly place sometimes.
I seem to remember gelatin is not used in Fuji film products! Hurrah! No idea if the products are strictly vegetarian? Of course, someone on the production line might have eaten a burger. ;)
Videotape also used to be made from whale meat, but then they discovered that it deteriorated quicker than other forms of VT, so I'm not sure they do that anymore.
Of course it's hard being a really strict vegetarian in todays society because they put horses toenail clippings and stuff in everything. Travel in an areaoplane and it's sure to have some of the intestines of a pig in it somewhere.
Did you know there is a food additive which is basically "old mans hair" BTW?
Completely veering off topic for a moment as this thread semed to from, oooh about the second posting:
A few people mentioned that if nobody ate cow meat there would be no cows, (which obviously makes a lot of people feel sad). I don't know if it's been mentioned, but there are lots of cows in India, even in this age of mass tourism, so I guess that idea doesn't entirely stand up.
I think that idea stems from the notion, that the human race is generally scum and will just murder all the cows and stuff as soon as they are in their way slightly. I have to say that this notion does appeal to my personal world view and I'm inclined to believe that cows would become "quite rare".
Having said that imagine if we lived in a world where people took care of the cows and the planet, not for economic reasons but because they could see the magic in these things, imagine that all the people got together to live their lives in peace, well you may say I'm a dreamer but...
...oh hang on I got a bit carried away there.
Back to the grindstone, ignite the seven canons and all that!
;)
love
Freya
The internet is a very silly place sometimes.
I seem to remember gelatin is not used in Fuji film products! Hurrah! No idea if the products are strictly vegetarian? Of course, someone on the production line might have eaten a burger. ;)
Videotape also used to be made from whale meat, but then they discovered that it deteriorated quicker than other forms of VT, so I'm not sure they do that anymore.
Of course it's hard being a really strict vegetarian in todays society because they put horses toenail clippings and stuff in everything. Travel in an areaoplane and it's sure to have some of the intestines of a pig in it somewhere.
Did you know there is a food additive which is basically "old mans hair" BTW?
Completely veering off topic for a moment as this thread semed to from, oooh about the second posting:
A few people mentioned that if nobody ate cow meat there would be no cows, (which obviously makes a lot of people feel sad). I don't know if it's been mentioned, but there are lots of cows in India, even in this age of mass tourism, so I guess that idea doesn't entirely stand up.
I think that idea stems from the notion, that the human race is generally scum and will just murder all the cows and stuff as soon as they are in their way slightly. I have to say that this notion does appeal to my personal world view and I'm inclined to believe that cows would become "quite rare".
Having said that imagine if we lived in a world where people took care of the cows and the planet, not for economic reasons but because they could see the magic in these things, imagine that all the people got together to live their lives in peace, well you may say I'm a dreamer but...
...oh hang on I got a bit carried away there.
Back to the grindstone, ignite the seven canons and all that!
;)
love
Freya
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MovieStuff
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- Real name: Roger Evans
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Not really. If you read the entire thread (a rather daunting task, I'll admit) you'll find that the original poster presented his question in a moral context. Therefore, it is reasonable (to me, anyway) that any answers would also be framed in a moral context, which some found objectionable since doing so seemed to question his lifestyle. Personally, I didn't really care what his lifestyle was like but the original poster certainly had his own questions about a lifestyle that included shooting film derived from animal byproducts, all the while ignoring that his suggested alternative (video) was also made from deceased animals.Freya wrote:Not read this thread, it's kind of funny, someone writes asking for help and advice and instead people jump on it as a platform to vent their views about the persons lifestyle!
Shooting video is no more "ethical" than shooting film, so there are no moral issues involved thus the question of shooting film should never have been framed in a moral context. Seemed like a pointless question since the answer was pretty clearly defined from the beginning: If you shoot one, you might as well shoot the other. If it is really a moral quandry, then shoot neither.
Silly thread......
Roger
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Alex
I don't think it was silly. The actual question was is shooting video more "animal friendly" than shooting film? Was this question actually answered?MovieStuff wrote:Freya wrote: Shooting video is no more "ethical" than shooting film, so there are no moral issues involved thus the question of shooting film should never have been framed in a moral context. Seemed like a pointless question since the answer was pretty clearly defined from the beginning: If you shoot one, you might as well shoot the other. If it is really a moral quandry, then shoot neither.
Silly thread......
Roger
Seemed like this was the original question to me, which I interpreted as asking for a film substitute that does not contain gelatin, which AFAIK is fuji film, of course whether it contains other animal by products or not is hard to say, as are a load of other questions.I'd pay just about anything for an alternative that will let me stay true to my ideals AND enjoy the beauty of film.
I see what you are saying Roger because he says he wants to stay true to his ideals and so you are going to have to say it will be difficult to stay true to the ideals. However that doesn't mean you have to say the ideals are stupid or ridiculous, or to attack those ideals, it just means that you have to point iut that it may be nigh impossible to stick to those ideals rigidly.
Of course this is true of all ideals anyway, I guess that is why they are called "ideals", like in an ideal world.
I will follow this posting with an example of what I mean...
love
Freya
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Alex
But the initial assumption was not being fiercely guarded as the truth by the topic starter, I think they wanted feedback.
I suppose the other unanswered question was whether the author of this topic was willing to settle for the most animal friendly media tape/film available or if it had to be 100% animal friendly in terms of ingredients that went into the making of the media device or the media tape/film used.
I suppose the other unanswered question was whether the author of this topic was willing to settle for the most animal friendly media tape/film available or if it had to be 100% animal friendly in terms of ingredients that went into the making of the media device or the media tape/film used.
A man posts that he believes in wearing a hat at a slightly jointy angle with a fish mount on the top but that on hot summer days the fish starts to defrost and possibly decompose and even to smell somewhat, and he finds that people are offended by this and large amounts of cats follow him down the street mewing. Of course he could wear a dead squirrel on his head instead, but he loves the beauty of fish, the shiny scales the interesting fish expressions on their faces... How can he stay true to his ideals and yet not offend people and excite the cats?
One answer might be to take a temperature reading and not go out on days that are too hot for fish.
Another answer might be to substitute the fish for a plastic fish, that might not really be entirely in keeping with his ideals tho and he would need a very high quality plastic fish to even begin to achieve the same look.
Another answer might be a qualified taxidermist who can do a good job on fish, whether this would be appropriate or not is also questionable as by the time the taxidermist has finished there may be little true fish left.
You could suggest he wears only the hat at a jointy angle if the weather is too hot.
You could suggest he has a fish encased in resin.
You might have to point out that a dead squirrel would also decompose and that people wouldn't like the smell of that and he is likely to be followed down the street by a pack of angry dogs, wolves and rats.
What you don't need to say is:
"I think it is stupid to wear your hat at a jointy angle, let alone to mount a fish upon it! Sir I think you are a pant faced loon and should quite frankly be shot. I expect you don't even wear a green hat or have a purple feather in it. The only thing that should be mounted on your hat are dead insects and spiders. People like you make me sick!"
From what I saw of your postings Roger you didn't (I didn't read the whole thread properly) but it seemed like there were a lot of people in that direction.
But then you always get that on the internet!
love
Freya
One answer might be to take a temperature reading and not go out on days that are too hot for fish.
Another answer might be to substitute the fish for a plastic fish, that might not really be entirely in keeping with his ideals tho and he would need a very high quality plastic fish to even begin to achieve the same look.
Another answer might be a qualified taxidermist who can do a good job on fish, whether this would be appropriate or not is also questionable as by the time the taxidermist has finished there may be little true fish left.
You could suggest he wears only the hat at a jointy angle if the weather is too hot.
You could suggest he has a fish encased in resin.
You might have to point out that a dead squirrel would also decompose and that people wouldn't like the smell of that and he is likely to be followed down the street by a pack of angry dogs, wolves and rats.
What you don't need to say is:
"I think it is stupid to wear your hat at a jointy angle, let alone to mount a fish upon it! Sir I think you are a pant faced loon and should quite frankly be shot. I expect you don't even wear a green hat or have a purple feather in it. The only thing that should be mounted on your hat are dead insects and spiders. People like you make me sick!"
From what I saw of your postings Roger you didn't (I didn't read the whole thread properly) but it seemed like there were a lot of people in that direction.
But then you always get that on the internet!
love
Freya
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MovieStuff
- Posts: 6135
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:07 am
- Real name: Roger Evans
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Right. Which is why I didn't.Freya wrote: I see what you are saying Roger because he says he wants to stay true to his ideals and so you are going to have to say it will be difficult to stay true to the ideals. However that doesn't mean you have to say the ideals are stupid or ridiculous, or to attack those ideals
But my response to the moral question was sneered at because it was framed in a moral context (by necessity of how the question was asked, mind you). Thus, I saw no need to perpetuate a veneer of civility dependent on me agreeing with the premise that a moral dilemma was present in the first place. My answers were seen as somehow less relevant because I questioned the faulty data that was the basis for the original poster's "moral dilemma". He asked for alternatives knowing there were none, short of chisling stone at 24 frames a second. So rather than asking for alternatives, it seemed as if he were really looking for someone to help him rationalize a choice he had already made. That's a silly waste of t ime.
Roger
Yup like I said.MovieStuff wrote:
Right. Which is why I didn't.
Yeah but by then the thread had degenerated into a silly mess long ago!But my response to the moral question was sneered at because it was framed in a moral context (by necessity of how the question was asked, mind you). Thus, I saw no need to perpetuate a veneer of civility
When threads have gone that crazy they just become a mess of mud slinging and all sorts and people get caught in the cross fire.
I wouldn't feel too hurt about it all Roger, I'm sure it's okay!
Noooo, theres alternatives, depends how flexible you can be. Fuji stocks might be the obvious alternative. Up to the individual really and what their paticular outlook is.dependent on me agreeing with the premise that a moral dilemma was present in the first place. My answers were seen as somehow less relevant because I questioned the faulty data that was the basis for the original poster's "moral dilemma". He asked for alternatives knowing there were none, short of chisling stone at 24 frames a second. So rather than asking
love
Freya
Hi,
I don't know if anyone's sugessted this yet because I skiped pages 5 and 6 cos frankly it was a lame argument. But at least super 8 uses lots less gelatin in surface area than 16mm or 35mm and if you shoot at a slow rate you could pack more action into smaller less film.
I was talking with a friend about this recently. He wanted to make a film about cows because he liked cows and liked film and wanted to kind of make a movie that pointed out to largely unaware audience that cows died for our memories and that kind of apologized to them and he could personally kind of feel some kind of atonement or something. I thought it was a lovely idea.
Mat
I don't know if anyone's sugessted this yet because I skiped pages 5 and 6 cos frankly it was a lame argument. But at least super 8 uses lots less gelatin in surface area than 16mm or 35mm and if you shoot at a slow rate you could pack more action into smaller less film.
I was talking with a friend about this recently. He wanted to make a film about cows because he liked cows and liked film and wanted to kind of make a movie that pointed out to largely unaware audience that cows died for our memories and that kind of apologized to them and he could personally kind of feel some kind of atonement or something. I thought it was a lovely idea.
Mat
well I didn't really go through all the posts, this thread being so old and all..
Nothing new, myself being a "vegan" as well.. the kind of bashing I read on second post is heard every single day by most vegans and vegetarians I know. After a while it just doesn't matter, I know what I believe, right?
the point is, noone on this earth is entirely coherent with whatever lifestyle they choose, maybe not by his choice or fault, but eventually we're all hypocrites.. one way or the other, knowingly or otherwise! I chose to shoot Super8 knowing that it contained animal products, same way I chose to drive my car or ride my bike, knowing that at some point someone or something must have suffered for that product to reach me.. is it fair? I don't think so, am I ready to give it all up? no. We're all selfish, some are just a bit more than others ;)
Anyway, I doubt that, whoever he was, the poster ever got back to the board after reading a couple posts into the thread, so it doesn't really matter anymore does it? hehhe..
now I just want to make clear that over the years I learned to respect other people's choices and lifestyles, although I may not understand them.. I get seriously pissed off and furious when people hurt animals for fun, as I'll never be able to respect that (hunting, bullfighting..) but I believe respect for the animals will grow as did respect for children, women, handicapped and non-caucasians..
btw, Freya.. I loved your posts..
edit: re-reading this, I thought it was all so silly.. so disregard what I just said
Nothing new, myself being a "vegan" as well.. the kind of bashing I read on second post is heard every single day by most vegans and vegetarians I know. After a while it just doesn't matter, I know what I believe, right?
the point is, noone on this earth is entirely coherent with whatever lifestyle they choose, maybe not by his choice or fault, but eventually we're all hypocrites.. one way or the other, knowingly or otherwise! I chose to shoot Super8 knowing that it contained animal products, same way I chose to drive my car or ride my bike, knowing that at some point someone or something must have suffered for that product to reach me.. is it fair? I don't think so, am I ready to give it all up? no. We're all selfish, some are just a bit more than others ;)
Anyway, I doubt that, whoever he was, the poster ever got back to the board after reading a couple posts into the thread, so it doesn't really matter anymore does it? hehhe..
now I just want to make clear that over the years I learned to respect other people's choices and lifestyles, although I may not understand them.. I get seriously pissed off and furious when people hurt animals for fun, as I'll never be able to respect that (hunting, bullfighting..) but I believe respect for the animals will grow as did respect for children, women, handicapped and non-caucasians..
btw, Freya.. I loved your posts..
edit: re-reading this, I thought it was all so silly.. so disregard what I just said
The ethical aspects of the original post aren't stupid, I had the same dilemma myself, when I attempted to go Vegan earlier this year. I'm not sure what I would have done if I had succeeded, given that plastics are really bad, and I care about the whole environmental picture, too. However, my bad physical reactions to a vegan diet made the point moot. I suppose it just brought home the point that everyone's different, there's no point attacking people's beliefs as being illogical, they just need the facts necessary to make a decision that's right for them.
Who knows, if people hadn't gotten so bitter on the board, and just pointed out the animal origins of videotape, maybe we would have kept another Super 8 user? I know of plenty of Vegans who use film because they think digital is ugly and inferior...
Who knows, if people hadn't gotten so bitter on the board, and just pointed out the animal origins of videotape, maybe we would have kept another Super 8 user? I know of plenty of Vegans who use film because they think digital is ugly and inferior...
The ethical aspects of the original post aren't stupid, I had the same dilemma myself, when I attempted to go Vegan earlier this year. I'm not sure what I would have done if I had succeeded, given that plastics are really bad, and I care about the whole environmental picture, too. However, my bad physical reactions to a vegan diet made the point moot. I suppose it just brought home the point that everyone's different, there's no point attacking people's beliefs as being illogical, they just need the facts necessary to make a decision that's right for them.
Who knows, if people hadn't gotten so bitter on the board, and just pointed out the animal origins of videotape, maybe we would have kept another Super 8 user? I know of plenty of Vegans who use film because they think digital is ugly and inferior...
Who knows, if people hadn't gotten so bitter on the board, and just pointed out the animal origins of videotape, maybe we would have kept another Super 8 user? I know of plenty of Vegans who use film because they think digital is ugly and inferior...