A new Super 8 camera - possibly

[Scotness]

What you need is a sensible Business Plan. Take my advice and never start anything without one.

Yes and no - I agree business plans are very important - but as a project and from an R and D perspective we're interested to do it just for interest's sake and to see if we can - and I don't think until we've gone at least part of the way down that path can we know how cost effective or not it will be. If it's not cost effective we won't be able to proceed with it - if it is cost effective then we'll set up a plan around that - but by making it build to order we should be able to insulate outselves from the risks a fair bit . Of course going down the R and D path is going to have some costs but at the moment we're happy to bear that just for the joy of what we'll find out/be doing.

So it will come into it but a bit further down the line I think.

Scot

[MovieStuff]

I mean, look at what Roger Evans charges for a workprinter. And that is absolutely nowhere near what you're talking about in terms of manufacturing realities.

Santos makes a valid point.

When I first offered the WorkPrinter, it was priced at about $400 or so and I starved. The overhead of materials and labor, etc, etc was just too great. The current price of $1295.00 may seem like a lot to the average super 8 film maker, but that is precisely the entire point here. Of the 800+ units we've sold, only about 1% of the buyers have been super 8 film makers. The majority of the buyers have been film transfer houses that use my units to make money every single day. People shooting super 8 generally aren't doing it to make money. Therefore, spending $1295.00 on a personal telecine unit is hard to justify for an independent super 8 film maker working on a shoestring. However, the reason that the 1% have bought the WorkPrinters at all is simply because there is nothing else out there for them to buy, other than a soft and fuzzy Goko or 230 line Elmo TRV, both of which cost even more than my units sell for. So my WorkPrinters sell because there is a need and really nothing else to choose from. People shooting Super 8 have, literally, thousands of cameras to choose from. Granted, they are all used but it is amazing what people are willing to live without if they can get a camera for under $100 or so. A new camera would have a hard time finding its audience, especially if it sold at price that would make it worthwhile to the manufacturer to keep up production.

Just my two cents....

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

[Basstruc]

If you can keep the price at AUD$1,000 = US$692, this will be a seller for sure.

I'm just a bit scepticle on it. How many times did I heard how people would be interested in a universal 200ft mag at a decent price. How many of you did purchase a Supermag 400 yet ? Remember also about people willing to buy a blimp but Phillip Fitzlaff did not sold one (I assume). And I'm speaking about almost unproduced devices before. Now how many cameras are on sale, even on ebay ?
Let me be honest, even if your camera is released Scott, I won't buy one.
Matt

[escubria]

The 400ft Supermag has not been released yet, so no one can say much about it until it is.

[escubria]

The 400ft Supermag has not been released yet, so no one can say much about it until it is.

[nasq]

I must say if you could make a super16 cam with a price like that, it sure would sell like dirt. It's so much more appealing format for professional film making than s8mm. I guess it shouldn't be too much more expensive to manufacture.

[LastQuark]

Success is born by risk and luck. You will never know what will happen until you get there.

The key is to determine what your risks are today. I am sure Scot thought about this a lot before making an announcement that he is going to make one.

There will always be skeptics. Because not one knows what to expect. But you have to listen to all what they say not because they are wrong but because you will learn in doing so.

So to me Scot, if you already have thought about these, go for it.....but always know when to quit.
 

[Scotness]

I must say if you could make a super16 cam with a price like that, it sure would sell like dirt. It's so much more appealing format for professional film making than s8mm. I guess it shouldn't be too much more expensive to manufacture.

Yeah I agree - and thinking it over we've decided this is the best route to take.

It's a tricky thing Super 8 - there are people out there like me and others who are interested in shooting features on Super 8 and obviously would like good cameras to shoot them on. I spent about $1500 on my ZMII and it's modifications and if a camera like I was proposing was available I probably would have gone for that - but with so many cameras available and modificiations available as well how many people would go for a new camera?

So I agree a Super 16 one is a far better prospect to make so we're going to put our efforts in that direction. The market again would be the low end indie film makers for which Super 16 is a lot more appealing than Super 8 or regular 16 - the chief competition in this bracket is the Ikonoskop which is about $7000 Australian - so if we can beat that with better features it'll be a goer.The price would probably end up being around $5000 Australian at least. A good thing electronically though is Rob says a multispeed crystal control unit is relatively easy - as would all the electronics for that matter -- it's the mechanical side which will take some work. Anyway I'll keep you all informed.

Scot

[Angus]

If you can keep the price at AUD$1,000 = US$692, this will be a seller for sure.

I'm just a bit scepticle on it. How many times did I heard how people would be interested in a universal 200ft mag at a decent price.

I would buy Scot's camera if it came in at around US$700 - depending
on exchange rates...though I see now he's looking at super 16 which
isn't of great interest to me at the present time.

Hell yes I'd be interested in a 200' or 400' magazine to fit all cameras
that could use the old Kodak 200' cart...for a reasonable pricee...supermag 400 isn't reasonably priced to me. Reasonable price for a mag to me is significantly under £100

Reasonable price for new super 8 cam is under £400

[downix]

Of course I've estimated that I'd need to sell my camera at around $3k US$ minimum, which obviously places it out of reach of the "shoestring" operators, hence why I've been designing it around more high-end features, like being able to switch between magazined Super8, Super8 w/o the magazine cartridge, Single8 and Double Super 8. I know that there is no way that I will be able to deliver it in sufficient quantity to validate a lower price.

[downix]

Ya know, the way I'm designing mine, it would not be difficult to convert to 16mm or Super16. (I was using a Super16-modified gate design for the front focal length, with a set of lenses shrinking that down to Super-Duper 8 size, to make it pure Super16, just take out the lens array and switch the rear magazine)

[Alex]

The resale price is higher in 16mm, but so are the demands. 16mm and 35mm will mean higher budgets for the film production. Higher budgets for films mean more professionals being paid a days wage.

It will no longer be about the one camera you sold them, it will also be about can you come up with 2 or 3 additional cameras for a particular days shoot, if they need to split up crews to keep on schedule, etc...

Can you provide instant camera replacement or repair if a problem occurs because the daily budget on a 16mm shoot will be greater than on a Super-8 shoot and a lot of money could be lost to down time.

Anyone who buys your 16mm camera but ends going to a professional rental house when you can't meet their instantaneous and changing needs will probably regret having done business with you if your stuff doesn't interchange with already established camera gear accessories.

No matter how many cameras already exist in Super-8, by including the most important features together, quiet, crystal sync, pin registered, your camera would stand above all others. With the world turning to digital intermediates, pin registration, HD ready aspect ratio will become a crucial aspect of professional super-8 filmmaking and those that only want to spend $200 dollars on a camera will not be your market anyway.

Just who will be your market? Remember Super-8 will have an attraction because it can go either NTSC or PAL, so it can be sold anywhere in the world.

It seems like whenever someone comes along who may offer competition to Pro-8mm, others try and sway that person from completing their project.

I find it odd that some of the people who may not like Pro-8mm also don't see the need for Pro-8mm to have any competition! I wonder how much money could be made off of the people Pro-8mm has turned off over the years?

Maybe not much, maybe Pro-8mm has a good sense as to who the players are and simply sticks to that market.

[MovieStuff]

No matter how many cameras already exist in Super-8, by including the most important features together, quiet, crystal sync, pin registered, your camera would stand above all others.

True, but low budget indie producers won't be able to afford it and people with a real budget (and backers watching their every move) are not going to pick Super 8 to shoot in, regardless of how sophisticated the camera is. The difference between shooting in 16mm and shooting in Super 8 is incidental, as far as film and processing goes, if you are talking about a feature length project, where real money is on the line. And there is no money in selling shorts, so any comparisons here are really at the feature level of production. More importantly, you are going to be able to shoot much easier with 16mm since you can shoot higher speed neg stocks that will offer better grain structure than shooting Super 8mm on the slowest negative stock there is. The crew will work faster and get off the location faster with 16mm and that adds up quick. So it's not just about offering a superior camera in Super 8. It's about understanding the needs of the production company that's saddled with the decision to shoot in a given format.

It seems like whenever someone comes along who may offer competition to Pro-8mm, others try and sway that person from completing their project.

I don't see anyone trying to shoot down a good idea. I see people simply helping Scott by clearly defining what the market is, as opposed to what we wished it were. Seems like the honorable thing to do, to me. Scott is smart to consider producing a super 16mm camera instead of another Super 8 camera because there is no market for another super 8 camera and there may be, in fact, only a small market for a new Super 16 camera. But, given the choice of spending X dollars on a new Super 8 camera and a new Super 16 camera, who would pick super 8? That's not being negative. That's being realistic.

I find it odd that some of the people who may not like Pro-8mm also don't see the need for Pro-8mm to have any competition!

If a high priced camera is what defines competition for Pro8mm, then how does that benefit us?

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

[marc]

Super 8, in ALMOST all of it's facets, has become a cottage industry. That alone tells you that producing another super 8 camera is a thing of the past.

[Alex]

It seems like whenever someone comes along who may offer competition to Pro-8mm, others try and sway that person from completing their project.

Scott is smart to consider producing a super 16mm camera instead of another Super 8 camera because there is no market for another super 8 camera and there may be, in fact, only a small market for a new Super 16 camera.

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv

--------------------

The key word here is "another" Super-8 camera. It's not another Super-8 camera because it would have many features never made before for Super-8 filmmakers. And as valid a reason for saying Scott should make a 16mm camera instead of a Super-8 camera, all the same reasons apply for making a 35mm camera instead of a 16mm camera.

I find it odd that some of the people who may not like Pro-8mm also don't see the need for Pro-8mm to have any competition!

If a high priced camera is what defines competition for Pro8mm, then how does that benefit us?

Roger
http://www.moviestuff.tv[/quote]

I believe a "mini-me" version of Pro-8mm could exist. A company that is still profitable, but not as profitable or perhap as stand-offish as Pro-8mm.
A new production camera would obviously create that environment, and it woudn't have to sell for nearly as much as what Pro-8mm would sell it for.

So since a new super-8 camera can never be made, then it's Pro-8mm or bust.