K40 COMPARED TO DV
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
-
DIEFTHINTIS
K40 COMPARED TO DV
I intend to shoot some K40 rolls, have them scanned and edit in Premier. I wonder if a good exposed Kodachrome, shot through a good lens and transfered though a good telecine service, looks good (and enough sharp) in a big 29'' TV screen, or does it have that home - made movie look. The reason I want to do this, is to take advantage of thw film's color quality. I don't mind about the grain, but I wouldn't be happy, if the picture is blurred.
If you have a good camera and shoot at 24fps, K40 will give you wonderful results, almost grain-free and definitely not the home-movie look you expect!
Using the best cameras available and exposing your footage properly, you might even think it's 16mm. What about s8 compared to dv, you asked ? Well, what about 1300 lines (estimated super8 resolution) versus 500 (dv) ?
Using the best cameras available and exposing your footage properly, you might even think it's 16mm. What about s8 compared to dv, you asked ? Well, what about 1300 lines (estimated super8 resolution) versus 500 (dv) ?
Cheezy
Now, I don't know about showing it on your 29" screen but if the telecine is good and you don't use too much compression when editing your stuff it should be ok. BTW, there's an active post in the forum that discusses the pros and cons of transfering Super8 to miniDV.
The telecine will usually have a contour option that can help improve sharpness, but that also means the grain will become slightly more noticeable.
The telecine will usually have a contour option that can help improve sharpness, but that also means the grain will become slightly more noticeable.
Cheezy
-
focusgroup
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:01 pm
- Contact:
In most cases, dv will look sharper than super8 but actually it ain't so. Film handles light, contrast, color and a lot of things much better than video. And as I said earlier, Super8's resolution is way beyond the most powerful professional video cameras. (unless you can afford HD, of course )
And there's this tiny little grain, hardly noticeable, but just enough to tell you this is film, man... And you don't get that on video.
The only BIG advantage with DV is the ease of use. I mean, you can edit it right off your computer. No need for costy telecine... And stuff like the new Panasonic 24p seem to be really great. Of course, for the people with loads of money, there is the mini35 system (http://www.mini35.com and http://www.pstechnik.de)
Super8 is something else. It doesn't look like anything else.
)And there's this tiny little grain, hardly noticeable, but just enough to tell you this is film, man... And you don't get that on video.
The only BIG advantage with DV is the ease of use. I mean, you can edit it right off your computer. No need for costy telecine... And stuff like the new Panasonic 24p seem to be really great. Of course, for the people with loads of money, there is the mini35 system (http://www.mini35.com and http://www.pstechnik.de)
Super8 is something else. It doesn't look like anything else.
Cheezy
home movie look depends more on the user behind the camera and the effort that has been invested into the shooting, but not on the system. (trembling image, wrong focus setting, wrong exposure, exessive use of zoom in and zoom out)
The S8 image, shot with K40 is far beyond any video registration, in terms of detail resolution, contrast, color definition and color saturation. I doubt the stated 1300 lines, but sth around 900...1000 is very realistic. The ability to deal with at least twice the contrast that video can handle may even cause problems during transfer and require individual exposure adjustment. The sharp look of DV is more produced by electronic enhance of contures between areas of the same color, comparable with solarisation in traditional film, and not by real resolution. K40 won´t show this conture enhance but real resolution and contrast.
However, to get an idea about the real quality of K40, you should not miss the oportunity of projecting it at least one time and compare the image with your video screen.
Pedro
The S8 image, shot with K40 is far beyond any video registration, in terms of detail resolution, contrast, color definition and color saturation. I doubt the stated 1300 lines, but sth around 900...1000 is very realistic. The ability to deal with at least twice the contrast that video can handle may even cause problems during transfer and require individual exposure adjustment. The sharp look of DV is more produced by electronic enhance of contures between areas of the same color, comparable with solarisation in traditional film, and not by real resolution. K40 won´t show this conture enhance but real resolution and contrast.
However, to get an idea about the real quality of K40, you should not miss the oportunity of projecting it at least one time and compare the image with your video screen.
Pedro
-
mattias
- Posts: 8356
- Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 1:31 pm
- Location: Gubbängen, Stockholm, Sweden
- Contact:
how did you "estimate" that? the theoretical maximum of super-8, based on kodak's numbers for resolving power, is about 1200x900, and the actual resolution is much less. with a good camera and a good lens you can get better than dv, but not by much. the main advantagees are better colors and contrast as well as the total lack of aliasing. search the archives for my test report if you're interested in the details.Cheezy wrote:what about 1300 lines (estimated super8 resolution)
/matt
-
studiocarter
- Senior member
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 1:13 pm
- Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA
- Contact:
proper exposure
If you shoot on a bright sunny day then your video will not look so great. Either the lights will be burnt out or the blacks will be completely closed. That is not so on the film, the film projected on a movie screen will show detail in both light areas and dark areas. You just can't get them both onto the video.
Some say it is better to shoot on an overcast day. Others say to use a special filter. The best advice is to use more lighting to brighten the darks. A large sheet of foam board with hand holds works. Keep the contrast range close because transfer to video increases it.
Be smart about clothing, too. Avoid white shirts and black pants.
I was told that a green background and a light skinned human foreground is difficult to color balance.
Stuff like that matters a lot. White picket fences in the background can cause havoc, too. I like to lock the exposure and adjust it manually.
Michael
Some say it is better to shoot on an overcast day. Others say to use a special filter. The best advice is to use more lighting to brighten the darks. A large sheet of foam board with hand holds works. Keep the contrast range close because transfer to video increases it.
Be smart about clothing, too. Avoid white shirts and black pants.
I was told that a green background and a light skinned human foreground is difficult to color balance.
Stuff like that matters a lot. White picket fences in the background can cause havoc, too. I like to lock the exposure and adjust it manually.
Michael
-
focusgroup
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:01 pm
- Contact:
DV looks good for close ups and little movement. It really suffers when shooting wide angle or fast action. According to the pro's, these issues continue in HD as well. Especially in panoramic POV's. I think the tearing issues can be resolved using progressive scan but the color depth etc in wide angle arent very successful in any video technology currently available IMHO.
-
DIEFTHINTIS
What about the problem with the pressure plate of the super 8 cassete? Isn't this a problem concerning the sharpness issue?mattias wrote:The theoretical maximum of super-8, based on kodak's numbers for resolving power, is about 1200x900.Cheezy wrote:what about 1300 lines (estimated super8 resolution)
/matt
Well, you should use your eyes, boys... because my estimated 1300 lines come from this very web site! Haven't you seen something called "A big guide to a little format" by Phillip Fitzlaff, on the home page? There's a chapter called "Why not video?" and here's what it says, for those of you who haven't already read this very interesting introduction to Super8 (BTW, you'll notice that I was still under what the author estimates) :
" It all starts with RESOLUTION. Resolution is the number of lines that make up the picture. The more lines you have the better the picture. So with that in mind lets take a look at the various formats:
* Regular VHS cameras have about 250 lines of horizontal resolution.
* Super VHS cameras have about 450 lines of horizontal resolution (a 60% better picture than with regular vhs.)
* Mini Digital Video cameras have about 525 lines of resolution (another 60% better picture than with Super vhs)
* SUPER 8 motion picture film has about 1315 lines of resolution! Over TWICE the amount of digital video!
Even the most sophisticated digital cameras can only deliver about 900 lines of resolution. So need I say more? "
Diefthintis, you asked about the problem with the pressure plate... What problem? What sharpness issue? As for myself, I don't have any sharpness issues with K40. If you have sharpness problems, it probably comes from a low-end lens or bad focusing (or your camera has some torn pieces, like the two small pieces on the gate that hold the cartridge in place). Remember that many Super8 cameras use split focusing and thus, a sharp image in the viewfinder doesn't necessarly mean you've got it sharp on the film! I've had problems with that in the very beggining. If you've got auto-focus, then it's probably worse because it will likely "pump" everytime you move, just like auto-exposure does when light's changing...
An easy way to go pro, and not home-movie style, is to use manual exposure and manual focus. Simple and free!
A tripod sure can help a lot because there's nothing worse than a jittery long-focal shot by a windy day
" It all starts with RESOLUTION. Resolution is the number of lines that make up the picture. The more lines you have the better the picture. So with that in mind lets take a look at the various formats:
* Regular VHS cameras have about 250 lines of horizontal resolution.
* Super VHS cameras have about 450 lines of horizontal resolution (a 60% better picture than with regular vhs.)
* Mini Digital Video cameras have about 525 lines of resolution (another 60% better picture than with Super vhs)
* SUPER 8 motion picture film has about 1315 lines of resolution! Over TWICE the amount of digital video!
Even the most sophisticated digital cameras can only deliver about 900 lines of resolution. So need I say more? "
Diefthintis, you asked about the problem with the pressure plate... What problem? What sharpness issue? As for myself, I don't have any sharpness issues with K40. If you have sharpness problems, it probably comes from a low-end lens or bad focusing (or your camera has some torn pieces, like the two small pieces on the gate that hold the cartridge in place). Remember that many Super8 cameras use split focusing and thus, a sharp image in the viewfinder doesn't necessarly mean you've got it sharp on the film! I've had problems with that in the very beggining. If you've got auto-focus, then it's probably worse because it will likely "pump" everytime you move, just like auto-exposure does when light's changing...
An easy way to go pro, and not home-movie style, is to use manual exposure and manual focus. Simple and free!
A tripod sure can help a lot because there's nothing worse than a jittery long-focal shot by a windy day
Cheezy
-
Tom
I have shot Super 8 for over 25 years and I am very glad it is still alive and kicking! It is capable with the right camera and operator of giving tremendous quality images - but there are other issues than resolution to be taken into account when comparing it to DV.
Firstly I must say that if Super 8 has a resolution of 1315 lines then that would put 35mm at about 6500 lines - the best estimates say more like 4k.
Resoving resolution is dependent also on the lens as well as the film and some Super 8 lenses will be struggling with 500 lines - I have both a Canon XL1s Mini DV camera and a Beaulieu 4008ZMII with a 6-80mm Angenieux and I would say that the lens on the Canon is as good quality and yet they say it is rated at 600 lines - this lens cost over $1500 . I may be wrong with these figures but you see that resolution is theoretical.
More importantly DV video is free of many of the 'artifacts' inherent in such a small film format - picture steadiness, registration and dirt, dust and scratches - indeed the very qualities that make it film and that so many people on DV spend sleepless nights trying to recreate. Nontheless these artifacts do contribute to both a lessening of percieved quality and resolution.
At the end of day I use both for different things (I professionally produce commercials and corporates) - I use Super 8 for titles and special sequences where it's unique qualities cannot be replicated and where turnaround waiting for processing/telecine is not an issue, and because it's film!
Firstly I must say that if Super 8 has a resolution of 1315 lines then that would put 35mm at about 6500 lines - the best estimates say more like 4k.
Resoving resolution is dependent also on the lens as well as the film and some Super 8 lenses will be struggling with 500 lines - I have both a Canon XL1s Mini DV camera and a Beaulieu 4008ZMII with a 6-80mm Angenieux and I would say that the lens on the Canon is as good quality and yet they say it is rated at 600 lines - this lens cost over $1500 . I may be wrong with these figures but you see that resolution is theoretical.
More importantly DV video is free of many of the 'artifacts' inherent in such a small film format - picture steadiness, registration and dirt, dust and scratches - indeed the very qualities that make it film and that so many people on DV spend sleepless nights trying to recreate. Nontheless these artifacts do contribute to both a lessening of percieved quality and resolution.
At the end of day I use both for different things (I professionally produce commercials and corporates) - I use Super 8 for titles and special sequences where it's unique qualities cannot be replicated and where turnaround waiting for processing/telecine is not an issue, and because it's film!
Cheezy said:
Paul
What do you mean; that one should focus with the split image exclusively and not with the aerial image?/ I got my first split image cam just recently..so I would like to know.Remember that many Super8 cameras use split focusing and thus, a sharp image in the viewfinder doesn't necessarly mean you've got it sharp on the film! I've had problems with that in the very beggining
Paul
-
Scot McPhie
comparing super 8 and mini dv
I have some comparison shots of the two on my features web site at http://www.mango-a-gogo.com/inmyimage/comp.htm
- admittedly there are some problems witht he comparisons in that both the shots weren't done under the most controlled circumstances - but still they are fairly revealing -- and in my opinion Super 8 @#$%^&%$# all over the video!
Scot M
- admittedly there are some problems witht he comparisons in that both the shots weren't done under the most controlled circumstances - but still they are fairly revealing -- and in my opinion Super 8 @#$%^&%$# all over the video!
Scot M