Beta or Mini DV

[Cheezy]

It is standard practice to stay with one tape brand and model as much as humanly possible.

That's right. There used to be a time when Beta SP recorders were calibrated for a certain brand. You often ran into serious problems if you put an Ampex tape in a VTR that was calibrated for Sony, for instance.

But again, we're loosing track of the original post my friends

[crimsonson]

Like I said DV is the way to go if you can't afford DigiBeta, DV50 or HD ;) .
DV and Beta SP is pretty much equal in everything. If push comes to shove, DV comes out slightly ahead in 3 categories - resolution, chroma info and generation dubs.

I would make a DV master. Make a digital copy and archive the other. This way you can have a working copy that has the exact same quality. If you ever decided to spend money on an online suite like a [uncompressed] Symphony, you have a choice now to do firewire or SDI. Color correct in uncompress - yummy...

[paul]

Ok, I'm not an expert on these things, but the main difference between dv and beta sp will be that the beta sp's camera lenses are far, far more superior than the cheap dv consumer lenses. I suppose that does make a difference. I don't mean to say that the formats are different (I believe you here) but there will be a difference in recording quality after all because of the two formats different "periphirals" ; so only if the lenses (or when the film is ranked) are the same it will not make a difference, but they are not.

Cheezy, there is a link with super8 since most people digitize their films, but I think you're also right because this isn't the place to elaborate on this subject too extensively.

[Cheezy]

If push comes to shove, DV comes out slightly ahead in 3 categories - resolution, chroma info and generation dubs.

Chroma info??? Well, try some pushy color correction or chroma key on dv and you'll know how chroma info sucks...
Generation dubs are ok, provided they're done in native dv (firewire) or SDI.

[S8 Booster]

I know DVD drops resolution some compared to the other formats but Disks are generally somewhat more reliable than tape and much faster to work with so why not use DVD for less than broadcast standard jobs.

For reference: Some of the tape manufacturers, EMTEC is one, offers full data recovery service for their MiniDV tapes and I assume the other [DIGITAL] tape formats as well.

In worst case there are companies like IBAS that recovers "everything" from magnetic based data storage systems including hard disks damaged in fire. Very expensive though.

R

[mattias]

Ok, I'm not an expert on these things, but the main difference between dv and beta sp will be that the beta sp's camera lenses are far, far more superior than the cheap dv consumer lenses.

yes, that's the main difference. you can't compare the formats by looking at what has been shot with a perticular camera, and certainly not the quality of telecined material, which is the issue here...

/matt

[crimsonson]

[/quote]

Chroma info??? Well, try some pushy color correction or chroma key on dv and you'll know how chroma info sucks...
Generation dubs are ok, provided they're done in native dv (firewire) or SDI.[/quote]


Again, not trying to be a snob, but you are confusing the technical specs of the format and NLE. Have you ever tried doing keying with Avid AVR 77, BetaSP and its own keyer? About as bad as any DV key. Using a DV deck with SDI, you can go to Symphony and color correct and key in uncompressed 4:2:2 till your heart's content.

http://homepage.mac.com/nweaver/.Movies/OzzyWebDV.mov

shot with DVX100 DV, CC in FCP 3 [59 MB]

Second, DV is 4:1:1 but it does not mean you have to stay in that color space during post.

Third, BetaSP's chroma bandwidth is actually smaller to DV, thus less color info.

If generation dubs is OK in DV, then it must be plain horrible for Beta, since in DV it a exact duplicate.

[Cheezy]

Using a DV deck with SDI, you can go to Symphony and color correct and key in uncompressed 4:2:2 till your heart's content. [/quote]

Well, if you say so... I don't see how working in uncompressed 4:2:2 can improve a 4:1:1 signal that was compressed 5 times... I mean, it's like putting VHS into a Quantel iQ, it's sure is better shit aesthetically, but it stays shit.

MiniDV has been pointed out here as a low-budget solution, so why would the guy spend all his money on a Symphony anyway?
But again, since we're talking telecine, which means quality+a lot of money, then why go DV at all? In that case it's rather like printing your Quantel material onto a VHS :lol:

[Cheezy]

But hey guys! Don't misunderstand me... I love miniDV ! I truly do. As much as I like Super8. Small formats that kick other's ass (like I remember I said someday in this forum...) And Crimsonson, your quictime video is just superb I just can hardly believe it's dv.

[crimsonson]

[/quote]MiniDV has been pointed out here as a low-budget solution, so why would the guy spend all his money on a Symphony anyway? [/quote]

you might have missed my point. I am saying is, use the exact same tools you do with BetaSP in post, and the quality is indistinguishable.

[/quote]But again, since we're talking telecine, which means quality+a lot of money, then why go DV at all? In that case it's rather like printing your Quantel material onto a VHS [/quote]


This is a popular misconception - DV is only consumer. Far from it. Sony's DSR 500 is $15,000 without viewfinder and lens. Ikegami has DVCam and JVC has DV cameras that cost the same amount as a car. All three formats are DV25, same DV we buy at Best Buy.

I don't see where BetaSP has any real world superiority over DV, especially DVCam and DVC PRo where drop out is not an issue though using the same compression system as plain DV?
If he goes BetaSP, he will need to record in uncompress and then output via component - If I am not mistaken that is a 3rd generation copy. With DV nada, zilch. We are also assuming he has access to BetaSP NLE Suite.


Its NOT my movie. The DP is Nate Weaver. Used $3500 Panasonic 24p DVX100.

[Coles4038]

Thanks for all the comments.

Cheers all.

[Cheezy]

I get your point Crimsonson. And I don't belong to the people who think miniDV is a consumer media. I was one of the first, if not the first in France to shoot a music video using Panasonic miniDV camera, because of the framing mode that made it look so much like film. It looked so beautiful that even the guys at Panasonic wouldn't believe their camera had made this and they asked for a copy to do their demos... And that was five years ago, man! DV's didn't even have firewire back then!
And, yeah, you're better off using DV all the way to your final master than making component generations of BetaSP.

Damn, I got to get my hands on that new 24p Panasonic!!!

[focusgroup]

Perhaps I dont get it. Please note that I have some pretty good mini dv stuff. A sony DSR PD 150. All my other digital NLE etc. is good. I have good capture cards and Digital Voodoo uncrompressed video card for output. Most of my work is played without recompression to DV. Also I use a workprinter for telecine.

I honestly think that digital video sucks when used to capture film projected through a workprinter. Perhaps because played back for most of my work is via plasma screens that really show the flaws.

I have gone to an analog camera. A Sony 2/3 inch 3CCD with- if I remember, about 780X545 resolution. 4.2.2. compression. This just beats the pants off my mini DV. The stair stepping effect from mini dv on images at about 15 degrees combined with those huge blocks around the edges of intersecting images just ruins it for me.

Maybe I notice due to compositing work when the flaws are more obvious, but even on my non composited stuff, I find the image quality sorely lacking in color depth, contrast and detail when using mini DV.

[Cheezy]

Thanks for your support, Focusgroup

[focusgroup]

Cheesy

Maybe I forgot to say. It all pales in comparison to that wonderful super 8 film projected in all its glory. Thats why Im here. Viva K-40. :lol: