Tape format????

[Lucas Lightfeat]

Christoph - you say dsr11 is around 1100 Euro - where would this be from?

hmm.. very strange.. i've been just researching prices on dv recorders a few days ago and i remembered that i thought, wow they became cheap...

but now i try to find it again it seems that the best price i can come up with is 2400EUR... so it's seems that my memory fooled me :/ sorry for that.

i'm waiting for a few price quotes on the DSR-11 and the DSR-45P though, i'll report back if a miracle happens ;)

++ christoph ++

ps: try to get hold of a tape with a dvcam signal (as matthias said, in the minidv size) and check if your camera plays it.. or ask your manufacturer.. i've found that many do. that way you would only need to rent/borrow the dvcam recorder/camera for one day when you finish your project.

I used to have use of a Sony miniDV camcorder, and it played back DVCAM footage no problem, which surprised me.

Just as DVCPRO is a miniDVtape format exclusive to Panasonic, DVCAM is a record speed exclusive to the more expensive Sony "Pro DV" cameras - no other camcorders record at this speed. Sony miniDV cameras, then, seem to play back DVCAM tapes.

Hope that helps
Lucas

[christoph]

Basically I found one for around the £1000 GBP mark which is around 1500 Euro, hence why I though 1100 seemed cheap.

i think i've found the site that i had in mind but the price is 2100something :/
http://www.bilgi.de/index_produkte_peripherie.html

seriously, 1500EUR sounds like a mighty good deal.. is that with tax? and could you post the link? ;)

++ christoph ++

[Scotness]

Guys all great and fair enough but what do you think about my idea in order to avoid the losses in compression?

Scot

[Lucas Lightfeat]

It seemed like a really good idea to me at first Scott, but as I considered it, it dawned on me that there is an argument that says...

Transfer straight to Digibeta with a simul. DV dub to work with, using time-code as reference for shot replacements? This is an established method of working to avoid the problems you've discussed and is perhaps simpler and even cheaper than what you've suggested. As Digibeta is the best of the PAL formats your quality will be retained.

Also, what kind of an analogue signal from the telecine machine would be best to take into the computer? Can any of the reasonably priced capture cards accept component video? or will it have to be CMYK S-video? If not component, then the straight to Digibeta route is better, as this is either a digital hardwire or component transfer.

Lucas

[christoph]

Guys all great and fair enough but what do you think about my idea in order to avoid the losses in compression?

it sure is an option but not very elegant... you're talking about lots of staorage space here (and fast disks). also, the weak link is that you have no tape to go back to when the hds fail (and it's no fun to back up 200GB to DVD)

basically i see two options:

- transfer to minidv > edit dv without any rerendering > put final edit into a uncompressed timeline > apply all effects > render out as uncompressed, mpg2 and DV (and whatever else you might need).
this will result in a very minor (nearly unnoticable) quality loss and is very convenient.

- transfer to digibeta > make a dv dub with the same timecode > edit dv > make edl > capture final edit from digibeta tapes to fast drives > apply effects > output to digibeta (and all other formats you might need).
this results in the best quality a PAL/NTSC sgnal can hold, but you need acccess to a digibeta player for 3 steps, which usually is not cheap.

++ christoph ++

[mattias]

COMPRESSION IS GOOD. IT SHOULD BE USED, NOT AVOIDED.

seriously scot, don't take this the wrong way but you thougt it was a good idea to release a dvd with a grid pattern overlayed and lousy sound, and still you're hunting for a few pixels and compression artifacts? that's the least of any of our problems. if you get less than stellar results with dv it's your fault and no extra pixels or bits will ever help you. i know this not because i think i'm better than any of you, but on the contrary because i've made all the mistakes there are to be made as well.

/matt

[matt5791]

Christoph,

Now typically I cna't find the original link, however I will keep looking. I have found one at just under £1200 UKP + vat tax.

Matt

[christoph]

Christoph,
Now typically I cna't find the original link

hehe... the curse of the internet ;)

however I will keep looking. I have found one at just under £1200 UKP + vat tax.

yeah, seems that it cant be had for under 2000EUR incl tax :/
still a good price for a good recorder.

COMPRESSION IS GOOD. IT SHOULD BE USED, NOT AVOIDED.

i wholeheartly agree.. DV is a great format, specially if you have to work with a lot of footage.

oops, gotta run to work
++ christoph ++

[Scotness]

you thougt it was a good idea to release a dvd with a grid pattern overlayed and lousy sound, and still you're hunting for a few pixels and compression artifacts?

That's because I want to find out where the grid pattern came from! And the best of my investigations so far make me think it's a compression issue. Now if you're aware of the limits of compression you can work around them and not be effected by it - something which I want to learn more about - but that said if there is a way to avoid compression or lossy compression then that is definitely one good thing to do.

if you get less than stellar results with dv it's your fault and no extra pixels or bits will ever help you.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - yes I've got to learn more about it - but I think extra pixels and bits will help! - given they are also used in a way which is non destructive in the encoding/re-encoding cycles.

i know this not because i think i'm better than any of you, but on the contrary because i've made all the mistakes there are to be made as well.

Enlighten us then - what is the ideal work flow - and would the method I outlined give higher quality images than any of the tape ones discussed here?

Scot

[shralp]

We've always done our transfers, (both S8 and 16mm), both to DVCAM and Digi-Beta at the same time with matching time code and this has worked flawlessly for the past 6 years on all of our movies. For our higher end action films we offline with our DVCAM gear on Final Cut Pro in-house and then output the EDL for a quick and efficient online from our Digi-Beta masters at a post house here in town. Our lower end releases, (instructional videos, etc.) or projects where the budget doesn't allow for on-line are just posted in house and are output back to DVCAM. The quality is still really good.

Another advantage of doing simul dubs for us is that we now have Digi Beta archives that we use for stock footage sales....

On the DSR-11, I assume that a PAL model may be more spendy than NTSC and there is shipping to consider, but B&H Photo in New York and Discount Video Warehouse in Illinois typically have NTSC models listed for $1500.00 U.S. They do carry PAL gear although I haven't specifically seen PAL DSR-11's advertised from them

[Scotness]

Hey I think I've found the cause - the export settings were incorrect and causing it to overcompress when I exported it - a few quick checks seem to confirm this - so I'll re-export the whole film and re-encode it to mpeg2 - kind of simple and emabarrassing actually :oops: but a good thing to find out - now for the audio :?

I still think my capture box idea is a good one - although inelegant as described - I might pursue it more - if you essentially capture at too high a quality it still pays off when you down sample - 200 gigs though is easy to back up - you just buy another hard drive and dump it out. And if you can go with lossless capture and codecs from the beginning why not?

Got to fly now

thanks for the input -- I'm going to try and get some press coverage soon for the film and get it stocked in some alternative video stores so it's good to get all this sorted out beforehand!

thanks again
Scot

[Alex]

Most digital camcorders DO NOT playback DVCAM. However the PD series of camcorders by Sony do playback DVCAM. I doubt that any of the canon camcorders playback DVCAM, they have a hard enough time playing back mini-dv that was recorded in a sony camcorder.

I also doubt if any one-chip camcorders can play back DV-CAM.

[Lucas Lightfeat]

Most digital camcorders DO NOT playback DVCAM. However the PD series of camcorders by Sony do playback DVCAM. I doubt that any of the canon camcorders playback DVCAM, they have a hard enough time playing back mini-dv that was recorded in a sony camcorder.

I also doubt if any one-chip camcorders can play back DV-CAM.

I have experience with a DSR- 30E (PAL) single chip Sony that played DVCAM with no problems whatsoever.

Lucas

[mattias]

if you get less than stellar results with dv it's your fault and no extra pixels or bits will ever help you.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - yes I've got to learn more about it - but I think extra pixels and bits will help! - given they are also used in a way which is non destructive in the encoding/re-encoding cycles.

what it means is that if you don't get absolutely perfect results with compressed sd video you won't get much better results with more pixels and less compression. the limiting factor has to be elsewhere in your workflow.

Enlighten us then - what is the ideal work flow

the ideal workflow is to datacine your footage to 2k, downconvert to dv, edit, online the 2k, and release, but we have to ask ourselves where we're standing. again, compressed sd video can look absolutely stunning even on the big screen, so any less than that are due to limitations in the rest of our workflow, not the tape format, and less compression and more pixels *won't* help you.

would the method I outlined give higher quality images than any of the tape ones discussed here?

not really.

/matt

[Scotness]

I'll guess we'll have to agree to disagree Matt - the experiments I'm doing already between conventional codecs and lossless ones are showing a difference to my eye - and if I can set up a system I will go ahead with capture to lossless codecs on a hard drive - I'm going to shoot something later in the year so I'll post some examples around then.

I'm getting some good results remastering the In My Image video images as well - I'm managing to get rid of most of that grid pattern - I'm just going to work over it over the next few weeks

Scot