Minidv or beta sp

[guest]

Hi,I have shot some k-40 for school and it looks incredible,the final product will be shown on a DVD lpd (video projector) in a small room of 25 people. My question is will the image look better ranked to minidv then burned to dvd or beta sp edited offline and then transfered to DVD?
I have heard Mattis.Nigel,Roger,eric,Santos and many others on this forum will give great answers.Thanks my grade depends on this.I am trying to keep the same great images that i saw projected by the super 8 projector I have at home. Thanks,everyone who can help please reply I am sending the film to be ranked at posthouse lab soon. minidv or beta sp?????

[rollemfilm]

Beta-SP...

[Alex]

You probably won't notice a huge difference between the two video formats. The "which is better" question probably depends how you will import the video into your computer. If you can actually import the component betacam sp signal without converting it to firewire, the BetaCam SP should be better than mini-dv.

If you have to convert BetaCam SP into firewire by running the betacam SP signal through a transcoding device that turns it into firewire, you may wipe out the slight advantage you get from having transferred to Betacam SP in the first place. Film transferred to either Betacam sp or mini-dv is different than if the footage you had was a video original. Film, being only 24 actual images a second, "smooths out" the deficiencies that one may get when shooting 60 field NTSC or 50 field PAL and as a result probably allows for the image to look pretty similar be it mini-dv or betacam sp that one is transferring to.

For archival purposes, I think Betacam SP is a heartier format.

[Nigel]

Where are you located?? I like DigiBeta or BetaSP for a master and then I get a DVCam simul-dub. You could dub off of the Beta copy to MiniDV yourself and it will look great.

Good Luck

[Alex]

Where are you located?? I like DigiBeta or BetaSP for a master and then I get a DVCam simul-dub. You could dub off of the Beta copy to MiniDV yourself and it will look great.

Good Luck

That is the best option of all, but it will cost a bit more. If you've already projected your super-8 film you may want to have it "wetgated" when it is transferred to video.

[bouncybabybucket]

I have shot lots of Super8 now, though I've yet to get anything telecined.
I'm starting to get mightly confused now! I work for a tv station so I know the obvious advantages of say Digi Beta over MiniDV.
I have the means of using DigiBeta tapes and capturing direct from them, so
what is my best way to telecine my footage. Onto what format for the best quality?
Is firewire not the best way to capture digital video? Our beta machines are conected through composite cables I think.

Please help.

[Alex]

The most cost-effective option is betacam sp.

You can then dub it via component to DV-CAM or mini-dv if you use a sony DSR-40 deck. Digital Betacam is the best quality. Digital Betacam also has a serial digital connection which allows for a higher bit rate per second than firewire.

Besides format issues you are dealing with video machine issues. The high-end DV-CAM/Mini-DV decks I think have serial digital in, so you could do your film transfer to digital betacam, then either go from the digital betacam directly into your NLE set-up, or dub your digital betacam to DV-CAM/Mini-dv via serial digital. (I may be mistaken, it may be that the higher end Sony DV-CAM/MINI-DV decks go serial digital TO digital betacam but not the other way around, anybody know?)

Ideally, stick with Digital Betacam from transfer to editing on the computer, however, if you find that doing that creates higher cost because you need everything you use to be higher end (including higher speed drives on your NLE), you might look into dubbing the digital betacam to DV-CAM/MINI-DV and then using that format to load into your NLE environment.

[Freya]

If digibeta is an option, that is obviously going to be best, as for betaSP vs Mini DV, is it really peoples experience that SP comes out ahead in this context?

It seems to me that if there is a rank transfer then there is no video camera involved, so low quality mini dv cameras should not be a problem. The resolution of minidv is about 500 lines wheras Betacam SP is only about 350 lines. Whats more SP is an analog format, so you suffer a generation loss when you go digital again.

If you import into the computer to create a dvd file for burning, if the file is transfered into a minidv codec, are you not losing any advantage Beta SP gives you?

My gut feeling is that mini dv would be better than SP in this application, but I have no experience to be sure.

I guess the big advantage of SP is the footage might have better colour but wouldn't this be lost if it ends up in a dv codec? Surely if it's going to end up as a dv codec somewhere along the way, it might as well start as one?

love

Freya

[christoph]

If you import into the computer to create a dvd file for burning, if the file is transfered into a minidv codec, are you not losing any advantage Beta SP gives you?
[snip]
I guess the big advantage of SP is the footage might have better colour but wouldn't this be lost if it ends up in a dv codec? Surely if it's going to end up as a dv codec somewhere along the way, it might as well start as one?

sure, but you forget that you can transfer the betasp tape to your computer without any additional DV compression, ie if you use a component signal to an uncompressed capture card.
please note that the term firewire does not always mean DV compressed, there are uncompressed capture cards that use a firewire connection.

advantages of betasp:
+ good storage
+ industry tv standard
+ high quality
- must be converted to digital to edit on a nle
- high cost

advantages of miniDV:
+ cheap cheap cheap
+ already in digital form and can be imported into a computer directly
+ pretty amazing quality
- tapes prone to dropouts, specially if handled carelessly
- compression problematic on heavy image manipulation

personally i'd say 99% of the home users would be better off with miniDV if it weren't for the damned archiving problem.

++ christoph ++

[Alex]

If digibeta is an option, that is obviously going to be best, as for betaSP vs Mini DV, is it really peoples experience that SP comes out ahead in this context?

It seems to me that if there is a rank transfer then there is no video camera involved, so low quality mini dv cameras should not be a problem. The resolution of minidv is about 500 lines wheras Betacam SP is only about 350 lines.

This is somewhat misleading. S-VHS has more horizontal lines than BetaCam SP, but which has a better picture? VHS and regular 3/4 inch have almost identical horizontal lines, but which is better? Heck, Super-VHS has close to 150 lines MORE than regular 3/4 video, but unless you use the most expensive S-VHS deck ever made and carefully adjust the Digital Noise Reduction to the optimum setting, S-VHS is not better than regular 3/4, and probably is actually worse. I think I heard that Sony does not like to list Horizontal lines specs anymore because people began using that one and only one measurement to decide which video format is better.

Whats more SP is an analog format, so you suffer a generation loss when you go digital again.

This drives me nuts. I've heard this line of reasoning before by others on other forums. The claim is the actual playing of an analog signal is considered a generation loss. WRONG. It's slightly, very slightly lossy if you keep it analog and if you aren't going to another BetaCam SP master and you are careless about setting the tracking incorrectly.

I did post-production editing in my video editing studio for a DVD that is currently in release called "The Spirit of Comedy". Let me count the generations this BetaCam SP analog production went through.
The BetaCam SP Camera originals were edited to a BetaCam SP edit master. I had to use an S-video router so that I could adjust the hue because they didn't match from camera to camera. I had a component router but because of the hue shift, I could not go component. This second generation BetaCam SP Edit Master was then edited AGAIN through an MX-50 analog/digital switcher.

This Third Generation BetaCam SP Edit Master was bumped directly to Digital BetaCam.

The 4th generation Digital Betacam was then cloned and the 5th generation Digital BetaCam clone was used to make the DVD. In addition to that, the 5th generation Digital Betacam was bumped back to Betacam SP. Some screener VHS copies were made from that 6th generation BetaCam SP. The 7th generation VHS copies looked absolutely fine.

Do you know what matters more than BetaCam SP analog generation loss, ADJUSTING YOUR TRACKING. You could lose FIVE generations just by making one BetaCam SP to BetaCam SP copy if your tracking adjustment is off.

If you import into the computer to create a dvd file for burning, if the file is transfered into a minidv codec, are you not losing any advantage Beta SP gives you?

As was said above, downconverting to the DV codec means the BetaCam SP signal is not being optimized.

My gut feeling is that mini dv would be better than SP in this application, but I have no experience to be sure.

I guess the big advantage of SP is the footage might have better colour but wouldn't this be lost if it ends up in a dv codec? Surely if it's going to end up as a dv codec somewhere along the way, it might as well start as one?

love

Freya

That is somewhat true. The key is to see if your computer supports higher bit rate codecs than the mini-dv codec.

[crimsonson]

This is somewhat misleading.

slightly but not completly. DV is considerably less noiser and can resolve higher resolution.
BetaSP's color chroma is at least on par with DV, if not slightly better.

WRONG. It's slightly, very slightly lossy if you keep it analog

Does not matter. It is still a generation loss. BetaSP to analog or BetaSP to digital - it is still a generation loss. You cannot make a clone, nature of the analog beast.

I think I heard that Sony does not like to list Horizontal lines specs anymore because people began using that one and only one measurement to decide which video format is better.

Many suspect this is for the HDCAM format. Why? Because the original HDCAM format is 5:1 compression. Not to mention has had a hard time convincing people about IMX/SX over DV/DVCAM and DVC Pro.

That is somewhat true. The key is to see if your computer supports higher bit rate codecs than the mini-dv codec.

Not completly true. It is not necessarily the higher bit rate but the chroma sampling.
The problem is this, old keying was done with analog system with often less resolution and more noise than digital DV. So any imperfetion where 'hidden'.
Second, if they do key digitally then would do it using a 4:2:2 system and high end system like Ultimatte. People who often key with DV do it with 4:1:1 DV codec and their NLE's built in keyer. Not exactly equal.
Key in a 4:2:2 environement and I guarantee you significantly better.

I can capture BetaSP via DigiBeta deck via SDI and DV via SDI [thus both coming in as 4:2:2 10 bit uncompress upconvert] and key in After FX, I bet many if not all can say with complete certainty which is which.


BTW - BetaSP can resolve around 400+ theoretical lines. S-VHS does not have more lines than BSP. S-VHS has about 320+ lines [versus 240 of VHS].

[christoph]

That is somewhat true. The key is to see if your computer supports higher bit rate codecs than the mini-dv codec.

Not completly true. It is not necessarily the higher bit rate but the chroma sampling.
The problem is this, old keying was done with analog system with often less resolution and more noise than digital DV. So any imperfetion where 'hidden'.

i think he meant the key to find out which format suits you, not key as in blue key...
again, for a standard cheap pc setup, miniDV is impossible to beat. if you can spend the money for a beta deck, a uncompressed capture card and some disk arrays then beta sp would of course give you slightly better quality.. but at ten times of the costs.

++ christoph ++

[Alex]

This is somewhat misleading.

slightly but not completly. DV is considerably less noiser and can resolve higher resolution.
BetaSP's color chroma is at least on par with DV, if not slightly better.

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DV produces more ringing on fringe items than betacam sp, and angles don't reproduce that well on mini-dv DV, if one considers that noise than why say mini-dv has less noise? -Alex

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WRONG. It's slightly, very slightly lossy if you keep it analog

Does not matter. It is still a generation loss. BetaSP to analog or BetaSP to digital - it is still a generation loss. You cannot make a clone, nature of the analog beast.

---------------

If you start with more info, even a small loss still puts you above the starting point of Mini-Dv. If you properly convert betacam sp to NLE, the loss is not noticeable. -Alex

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[crimsonson]

DV produces more ringing on fringe items than betacam sp,

Hmm, that is a tough because you are comparing analog and digital. See Mattias explanation about sine waves and square waves in other threads.
Also, ringing in general is a sign of a bad signal feed not necessarily bad format. Ringing comes from the cross talk between luminance and chrominance in the higher frequency.
I assume you are viewing the signal via composite or maybe S-video? You really need watch it at least component.

and angles don't reproduce that well on mini-dv DV

partially right and partialy wrong.
The problem here is many compare the stairstepping they see with DV using footage from a $3500 camera like a PD150 to footage they get from a $10,000 BetaSP camera with a $2000 lens. Not exactly fair.
The stairstepping is the result of 2 things - low resolving power of the camera and compression of digital.
With a DSR500 camera the stairstepping is significantly less. With a camera capable of 700 lines of res [thus oversampling] the stairstepping is kept at a minimum.

Also, remember that BetaSP has less resolution so keep that in mind when comparing flaws. But in general, yes analog does not the have stairstepping affect that digital compression has.

if one considers that noise than why say mini-dv has less noise?

I am refering to a more specific definition of video noise.


http://www.ussc.com/~uarc/utah_atv/Deli_id1_p5.JPG
http://www.ussc.com/~uarc/utah_atv/Deli_id1_p4.JPG

One that is defined and used within 'SNR' measurement.

If you start with more info, even a small loss still puts you above the starting point of Mini-Dv.

How are you comparing? It is an analog vs digital format - not completely apples to oranges. If just look at the technical specs, DV can resolve more lines, has a higher chroma bandwidth, can supress video errors better and etc. I am unsure what you mean by 'starting point of DV' since the only thing really BetaSP has a leg up on DV is the overall chroma info, which some consider BetaSP to be equivalent of a 3:1:1 sampling ratio and not the higher 4:1:1/4:2:0 of DV.

If you properly convert betacam sp to NLE, the loss is not noticeable.

How - uncompress 8 bit? That is 5 times bigger than DV's 3.6 MB/s - a perfect transfer of the signal with no generational or digital conversion loss.

[Old Uncle Barry]

Well as you are in the USA and using NTSC then DV/DVD would,in my opinion be your best option.