Archival Quality: 20 Year Old CDs Disintegrates In Denmark.

[S8 Booster]

Sorry - this one is in Norwegian but it is a story from a library in Denmark - Ã…rhus City Library to be more spesific - their 20 year old CDs stored properly are disintegrating and apparently it will happen to newest CDs as well.

NOR Link: http://www.nrk.no/musikk/3718720.html

Gimme some K40 - thanx.

Maybe Sunrise can find some English version?

R

[Patrick]

Well well well...look what's going to happen to all these images captured by digital cameras in the future. Unless of course, they transfer the images to one CD for a few years, then transfer the material to another CD for a few years and so on.

Though then again, I have CDs that are about 16 / 17 years old and they don't show any signs of disintegrating just yet.

[jean]

Cool, I doubt the industry will do anything to solve this in the future, since this will generate a constant stream of revenue! On the other hand, a brandnew DVD with some stuff I need to work on seems to be only readable in the drive that burned it. And few floppy discs seem to survive more than a couple of months. I need them as boot disks, but guess what, every time I need them at least one out of four is unreadable.

Virtuality is bless and curse of the digital age.. the analog stuff is "real" and will be readable as long as a man cares to do so. I've read that there is a way to read "ancient" audio recordings on wax cylinders without touching and damaging them, and archives are eager to unlock their hidden treasures. Audio recordings that are more than a century old.. and my first cd's turning into crap? Well, a sign that I'm getting older myself, 20 years gone by, sheesh..

[Geronimouse]

Check out the latest DPReview newsletter quoting the UK "Independant "Newspaper.Personally I'm a little cynical on this one !!!

[Rick Palidwor]

No surprise. I used to work in the University of Toronto library, one of the largest in the world, and I knew the head of preservation and he told me when CD-ROM's came out they had high expectations for them as a preservation medium. Tests, done by a consortium of world libraries (which pool resources to solve common problems, like this) quickly showed that the CD format had very very poor archival properties. This was 20 years ago. So the industry has known this for a long time, but continue to lie about these issues nevertheless. (Music CD's weren't supposed to skip, remember that?) The library tests have not found anything better than monochrome film used for microfiche.

Rick

[jean]

CD are crap to store anything on anyway. While 10 years ago 600MB seemed enough for holding the entire knowledge of mankind, it's nothing today. And it's the slowest media only second to the floppy disc.

Microfiches may be as archival as the colloseum, but a very serious PITA to work with. Digital is the way to go to have information accessible. And storage solutions are industry standard these days, changing hard discs from time to time is maintenance like cleaning the floor, or putting in a new s8 cart

Microfiches, oh my god, that's like a nightmare 8O

[S8 Booster]

Hmmm.... I think I am going to put "Heartbeak Hotel" on my Recodo Purea - right now:

Heartbreak Hotel

-Artist: Elvis Presley
-the # 10 song of the 1955-1959 rock era
-was # 1 for 8 weeks in 1956
-Words and Music by Mae B. Axton, Tommy Durden, and Elvis Presley
-writer Axton is the mother of future country singer Hoyt Axton

Can´t microfishes be scanned quick&easy these days?

The Flintstones were pretty much ahead of time.
Their Analog Rock Carvings are still around 5000 years later.


R

[sunrise]

I found another version of the story, but in Danish...

http://www.jp.dk/arkiv:aid=2377298

Quick internet translation (which actually doesn't make sense anyway):

Cd's disintegrates in the course of time.

From KASPER SCHÃœTT JENSEN

After a number cd's from the archive at Århus Statsbibliotek is begun to rot , is there start dispute about , how long a cd can be kept. One thing is certain : The keeps no perpetual. The keeping qualities from music cd's have been here up to argument , after Århus Statsbibliotek has detected , that a number from the archive cd'er is begun from rot. The material to the disks dividing , and to some chances is there come little punch to the disks. That turns themselves fortrinsvis about diskettes from launch from 1980'erne. Discovery doing cd - drug weak to relationships to example vinylplader. Århus Statsbiblioteks lydmand Choose Hilly country discovered they defective cd'er , when he was to finished by that digitize the library a lot of cd'er. Decent be converted the music to a digital clock format by no that være dependent from the time the formats and play back. »En day have we why nor cd - play back longish. And cd'erne duer no better emphasize Choose Hilly country. »Og so ville that why være annoying , of which vi no had the music prone at a dance neutral format. They keeps no perpetual »Jeg vil trust vi has fundet 10 diskettes by fault at up to now. It is a disappearance little part , however everything has why a commencement. There's anything , there interprets at , that cd'er begins that rot after år. TO a single bin by cd'er found vi example two by fault telling he and displays a couple of defective diskettes forth. It is after no all old cd'er , that exceeds. He displays the bunch ældste forth : a publication by Tøsedrengene , there to other has that i'm pretty well. Jakob Trock , there's qualified at konservatorskolen and has written speciality about bevaringen from electronically documents at cd'er , intends too , that that notices quality against cd - drug. 20 percentage has fault »Det is difficult that tell , where a lot of cd'er there's defective , however i intends , that 20 percentage from they cd'er , there's produced between 1982 and 1992 barely vil be more fond of than år. It is consequently actually , decent shall take care of that secure against his data bank The technology has been worse luck the paper cd'ens young år , however according to Jakob Trock can be decent no know themselves certain. »De most cd'er can be subscribe 60 to år , however there's consequently a certain percentage , there no keeps , and it has highly by the output that do. C0d'er is highly fintfølende , and there goes typical a bit age , ante another works has learned that manage the technic. There's highly extensive variation at the output. Therefore cultivates i that tell , that a cd can be subscribe between three and 300 år.« Jakob Trock intends , that the thing is undervurderet. Badly enter »Der is why no , there keeps øje by that here. The consumer is hand over to pure the guessing »Man ought get that better quality. There reside in spite of everything by 10 the billion cd'er to universe Jørgen Michaelsen is manager by udviklingsafdelingen by Tocano , there produces two millions cd'er about the week. Tocano has produced cd'er the paper 1994 and has never experienced similar problems. »Cd'er is made of ditto material , that decent prepares panserglas from. They keeps no perpetual , however år shall they when very likely subscribe estimates he. He can be after illuminate , that there were fødselsproblemer , when decent started that manufacture cd'er initially from 1980'erne. »Man used a especially enter to that supply with the script at the disks. Known several chances is depressed gone through the disks and has made little punch Private the theory Choose Hilly country has too a theory round the storage from cd'er. »Plader implied why side by side to cases. Possibly carrying they some the steam to each other. There can be crop up a kemikaliedunst on account of all they body , there's to plastic and document The theory can be Jørgen Michaelsen purchase. »Det is correct crucial , how decent stores his cd'er,« states he. »Jeg has noted instances at , that cd'er can be wrecked from that være stored to a peculiar kinds plastikposer. That treats a fedtet coat , that destroy the disks. They can be nor put up with moisture. That gets they various stuffs to that depart Jørgen Michaelsen pointing contemporary at a propensity to informationssamfundet. »Vi started by runestenene , that why keeps correct for a long time. So started decent that write down to books. The paper is vinylpladen and the ribbon come to. And today spending vi cd'er. There's propensity to , that vi vil orchard better information at less site , and that goes consequently except levetiden.« They two is agree about , that cd'er no keeps perpetual. »Go digital. Hoax do it now.« So cash sounds Choose Hilly country advise to all addict musiksamlere , there reluctantly vil look one pladesamling rot. Protect musiksamlingen »Man must not trust , that decent has anything , there can be play back to all aeon. By that can be decent consequently no. Decent can be either hope for that good or digitize , while age is. Digitaliseringen require in principle nothing but a lyttekort and a harddisk , there applies the in question musiksamling. Jørgen Michaelsen featuring too in by a advise : »Spil your music by at another burn cd every fifth år. So is the music forever consolidated

[Angus]

Nothing new there. Back in the mid 80's several independant laboratories performed aging tests on CDs to estimate their lifespan.....all results pointed to a life of 15-30 years.

I personally have had CDs appear to oxidise after 10 years or so, only two discs but still worrying to anybody thinking it might be an archival storage medium.

[mr.skull]

When a cd goes bad, it is probably due to poor manufacturing. If you have something important to store on them, it would be wise to spend a little more on high quality discs. The Mitsui company makes "archival" cds using a much more stable dye, and gold instead of aluminum. These are certain to last far longer than conventional cds. Videotape and digital media will deteriorate over time, and it is important to transfer them to new media every 10 to 15 years. Also, its a good idea to make multiple copies, preferably on different brands of media. Storing important projects in more than one place is good insurance too. I keep copies of a lot of my work in a safe deposit box! By the way, film deteriorates too, just not quite as rapidly. Most of my super8 ektachromes from the seventies are showing signs of fading. Kodachrome is the ONLY film stock that can be considered archival.

[matt5791]

Fuji confidently claim a useable lifespan of 100 years for their negative film.

Matt

[tim]

After reading this thread, I researched library archiving via Google. Main point were:

Libraries regard CDs and derived techologies as being safe for only ten years.

The only really long-term archive material (apart from special paper) is archive-quality microfilm which is rated at 300 years.

I also came across this:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/researc ... 2003.shtml

[Rick Palidwor]

And b&w films last longer than colour films, due to dye fading. For this reason, when the big hollywood studios archive colour films they turn their colour neg into three monochrome negs, one for each primary colour. From these monochrome negs they recreate a colour print later.
Rick

[Angus]

No compact disc has a lifespan of 100 years. If Fuji are saying that then either they are using technology supplied by space aliens or they're talking crap.

The CDs you buy pre-recorded music or CD-ROM software on...the CDs you buy for burining your own data onto....all have a lifespan under 30 years. sure cheapo-crap CDRs will have a shorter lifespan especially if abused by exposing to light or heat...but the bottom line is the short lifespan of the compact disc has been known and was widely published in computer and hi-fi magazines in the mid 1980's.

There are a few media suitable for long term archival storage...they include some of the more stable inks on high quality low starch paper, "needle in groove" audio or data recordings (wax cylinders, vinyl records, alu discs) and B&W silver halide photographic films. All reckoned to have lifespans, if stored well, of centuries.

CD's are certainly not considered long term archival material by anybody, neither are DVDs though they may well last longer. As tim says, libraries regard CDs as short term storage media, as rick says Hollywood archive their colour films on 3 B&W films (yes, even today they do this) and these facts aren't just because libraries or Hollywood film moguls are luddites.

[Daniel]

Hello,
This theme is interesting.
From what two different electronic engeneers explained to me, one problem is as it was mentionned here : longevity of the media.
But the other issue is that, nobody can guarantee you that there will be the technology to read those CD's in 30 years or more.
It is may be already a fact for those 5"1/4 floppy disks which were in use until the 80's.

Regarding colour photochemical imagery, I was told by an old photographer that the Cibachrome (now Ilfochrome) technology have exceptional longevity.

From the manual Cibachrome-A Print System the following explanation :

"In the Cibachrome-A print material, there are three silver halide layers, sensitive to blue, green and red light respectively. The blue-sensitive layer contains a yellow dye, the green-sensitive layer a magenta dye and the red-sensitive layer contains a cyan (blue-green) dye.
In traditional colour systems, the dyes are produced by colour couplers during processing. In Cibachrome-A on the other hand, pure azo dyes are already coated in the silver halide layers. They are bleached-out during processing in proportion to the amount of exposed silver, so that the result is a positive picture. Thus the concept-silver-dye bleach system."

Best Regards,

Daniel