kodak's motives

[fessuel]

In an earlier message Roger mentioned the possibility of Kodak trying to get the sales of 16mm film up and the possibility of the cartridge jitter problem being intentional so that people would steer away from 8mm use and in disgust move up to 16mm. My question is this: Are things going in the trend that I suspected? Is the advancement of video technology making the smaller(8mm) formats more appealing to work with? Maybe people have realized that The can shoot with economy and and still get good images because of video technology's applications. I like to hear what other people think about this.
fessuel

[David M. Leugers]

I think that the advent of digital video cameras and computerized editing has actually helped garner more interest in the 8mm gauge films. Those who use either R-8mm or S-8mm do so for the economy, look and ease of filming in tight conditions or on-the-run among other aspects. It is a great format for video release. 8mm can look really good transferred to video and the difference between 8mm and 16mm when transferred to video is narrow enough to make 8mm look very attractive. I doubt if Kodak sabotaged their own product (S-8mm film cassettes) in order to force filmakers to shoot 16mm. Most users of S-8mm can not afford to shoot 16mm. If Kodak wanted to stop selling S-8mm fim, they could simply stop rather than create a lot of ill will. S-8mm is such a small part of their sales, I think this problem just happened and (to their credit) they took measures to fix the problem. Thanks to websites like this one which did a great deal to bring the problem to light. I think the drop in 16mm sales is just a continuation of the slide when the traditional avenues for 16mm use = sports photography, educational films, TV news gathering, documentaries etc switched to video production. 16mm film has to be seen projected on a big screen to fully appreciate it IMHO. I bet a lot of student filming at colleges is now done on video instead of 16mm film...

[Guest]

Am I missing something?

I have heard that s 16 is doing great and product sales are strong.

This is per the cw some ASC members who shoot S16.

[MovieStuff]

In an earlier message Roger mentioned the possibility of Kodak trying to get the sales of 16mm film up and the possibility of the cartridge jitter problem being intentional so that people would steer away from 8mm use and in disgust move up to 16mm.

Ummm. That's not quite what I said (or meant, anyway). I wasn't saying that the jitter problem was intentional; just negligent and avoidable, considering Kodak's concerns about people using film in the future. I find it ironic Kodak can't recognize that people will continue to use film over digital if they develope the film habit early on. Budding film makers of 20 years ago had super 8 sound film they could learn with before moving up to 16mm. Today, budding film makers still want to shoot sound but doing so with a super 8 camera is a hassle compared to the ease and instant gratification of shooting DV.

More importantly, once they shoot something and all their friends and family applaud, the hook is set: DV will be a way of life as they will not stray from the medium that provided the positive feedback that made them feel special. Of course, had they shot the same first project on super 8, their family and friends would have reacted the same and the hook would have been set for film instead of video.

If Kodak wants people to continue shooting 16mm, then Kodak has to realize that super 8 is the logical starting point and needs to support it better. As it stands, the support for super 8 is appalingly shallow. Does Kodak really think that people will start out with daddy's miniDV camera and then somehow feel the need or confidence to jump to 16mm? No way. People that start out in film generally stay with film as long as they can. People that start out in video tend to stay with that format as well. I am just amazed that Kodak can be so obtuse in their desire to get more people to shoot 16mm.

Roger

[jukkasil]

People that start out in film generally stay with film as long as they can. People that start out in video tend to stay with that format as well.
Roger

Hi Roger!

I understand your point.

BUt personally I have to say, that I started with video and I found this great super 8 world during Summer 2001.

I bought a mint Eiki NT-2 16 mm projector from our local flea market and after couple days after that deal I bought also my first 16 mm and super 8 cameras (Krasnogorsk-3 and Sankoy ES-44XL).

There wasn't any way to go back when I received my first K40 rolls back from Lausanne!

I noticed very soon, that 16 mm format is too expensive for me and started to learn more about shooting super 8.

I Have now about 15 different kind of super 8 cameras (10 these better ones plus 5 basic cameras).

Still haven't shot any 16 mm rolls with K-3, but have shot with super 8 cameras now about 60 K40 rolls. Nowadays I don't shoot much with my mini dv videocamera at all.

I'm using it almost all the time for Workprinter transfer projects!

I have noticed the same thing with couple other guys here in Finland.

I have written a lot of information about super 8 formats, cameras, transfer to digital etc. to our http://www.digivideo.org site and by this way many video shooters have found this great format!

Also couple old super 8 shooters who have changed their for mat from film to video during 80's have found super 8 again, bought cameras from ebay etc.

So, you can also go from video to super 8, it is possible!

[David M. Leugers]

I think Roger brings up some good points. It would be a big step in the right direction if Kodak were to take some serious steps to support the S-8mm format as a beginning FILM format for filmakers. I think the introduction of Vision 200 speed negative was a positive, but certainly more can be done to promote S-8mm usage. Unlike any other format, S-8mm (and R-8mm 8) ) has multiple and very different followings. Very few shoot 16mm home movies and certainly no one uses 35mm for that purpose. Those who like to make projectable films need reversal stock, but those aspiring to advance up the food chain would be better off learning the ins and outs of professional negative stocks. I think the first thing Kodak should do is bring out their lowest speed daylight balanced negative stock in the S-8mm cartridge. I believe this stock would allow documentaries shot outdoors (animals first come to mind) to be filmed economically on film instead of video as the image quality would be where it needs to be to justify shooting on film. With Kodak promoting this stock, I think a whole lot of interest would be generated especially at the price Kodak could sell it for instead of the insane prices Pro-8mm gets for their products. Secondly, there are many serious cameras made in the past for the DS-8mm format. These were of professional grade (thanks Roger for your previous comments on the Canon. I went and bought one and think it is probably the best S-8mm camera ever made) and its owners need support. The low speed daylight and 200 speed indoor Vision stocks would provide DS-8mm camera owners the film to make serious movies. Last but not least, the convenience of shooting single system sound is hard to ignore. With all the audio tape production and video tape production in the world, isn't there some place that could put a stripe on filmstock for use in sound recording cameras? I dream of a converted S-8mm sound camera that takes 200ft rolls of S-8mm film with mag stripe... not that would be awesome. I hope someone at Kodak is listening to all the input everyone has to give here.

[studiocarter]

Someone who was good in the dark, had a stripeing machine, and a web site could start up a cottage industry putting sound stripe on raw film stock. Better add an exhaust fan to that room.

[focusgroup]

Excellent thread with great points. Trouble is this forum doesnt appear to be viewed or responded to by Kodak or their most excellent and helpful employee John Ptylac (sp?) or any cinematographers that might have influence. Perhaps this thread should be posted over to the ASC website where people that make things happen can view it.

I think the best place for this website frankly would be as a subgroup of the ASC forum. They seperate catagories for 16mm, first time filmmakers as well as the pro forums. I think if we were there, the response by the pros would be enormous.

Dont get me wrong I think this is a terrific website that I view all the time. I just think it would be enhanced and reviewed virtually every day by the Kodak techs if it were positioned in the right spot. Perhaps a few phone calls by the Kodak employees viewing the threads might make all the difference for us S8 users.

George

[S8 Booster]

Last but not least, the convenience of shooting single system sound is hard to ignore. With all the audio tape production and video tape production in the world, isn't there some place that could put a stripe on filmstock for use in sound recording cameras? I dream of a converted S-8mm sound camera that takes 200ft rolls of S-8mm film with mag stripe... not that would be awesome. I hope someone at Kodak is listening to all the input everyone has to give here.

Basically it should be fairly simple to design a machine that could soundstripe the raw film by any sound stripe material available these days.

The major problems in treating the raw stock is as far as I have noticed on the PRO8mm site history/articles (regarding splitting films and put them into cartridges) that they had big problems in keeping the film free of dust and non-charged (Static electricity) so this is probably the major poblem.

200ft S8 sound cartridges are available from Beailieu, possibly only for Beaulieu or PRO8 cams. Soundtriped K25 in 60m reels/200ft is available from Wittner in Germany. Way too expensive though.

However, since Fuji in Japan still (post) soundstripes the Single8 films it migh be a possibity to get them do various jobs on S8 (DS8?) stocks (Like Fuji Provia 100F that technically is a liiitle less grainy than the K40) and pack them into S8 carts too. They do have pretty good neg stocks as well.

Matter of volume I guess?


The Elmo 1012 & 812 S-XL S8 sound cams are designed for 200ft sound cartridges and could use them if they were still available.

I own a 1012 and shot numerous 60m! carts with it. Drawback: Easy to become s trigger happy fool like the Videots.

Waste of film possible but very convinient!

R

[kjellpell]

S8 Booster wrote:

"However, since Fuji in Japan still (post) soundstripes the Single8 films it migh be a possibity to get them do various jobs on S8 (DS8?) stocks (Like Fuji Provia 100F that technically is a liiitle less grainy than the K40) and pack them into S8 carts too. They do have pretty good neg stocks as well."

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. I wrote Fuji, Japan, regarding supplying Single 8mm film-stock, and I did in fact, receive an answer, but they were not even interrested in supplying their own stock/system outside Japan as they had no processing-plant outside Japan. So for Fuji to supply their stock in Super 8mm carts I would think is out of the question.
The solution must lie elsewhere.

[S8 Booster]

You may well be right but there are 3 factors required to have any chance to succeed:

1) Profits
2) Extremely detailed and accurate project planbing and know how.
3) Patience

From expereince.
Not saying it will work

If Kodak too turn to Polyester based film this may be the only option remaining in theory.

It appears that Wittner in Gerany pre-striped hte K25 S8 so they may have the gear for he Actetate base film at least.

Possible to check.

R