Background music
Moderator: Andreas Wideroe
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FILM-THURSO
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Frankly, I'm just not seeing your point. If it's a home movie anything at all like my home movies, it'll be lucky if five people see ever it--including myself.
I try to make them as entertaining as possible, but I just don't see a film about a family vacation or birthday party ever being much of a draw. If, god forbid, I were to use copyrighted music in it, I highly doubt the feds are gonna come bust in my door--after all, I've never paid anyone for the rights to sing "Happy Birthday" at the party itself.
If you and your friends are at home, watching a movie you made, likely staring the very same friends watching it with you, I say you're free to use whatever music you want to use. No matter how you cut it, this is nothing more than private use. There is no public distribution and no need to bring in the laws and regulations it entails.
If this were anything more than a home movie, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. You seem to be making an extremely big deal over nothing.
I'll let you know if ever I'm arrested for having a CD play in the background while sitting alone in the basement watching a movie.
I try to make them as entertaining as possible, but I just don't see a film about a family vacation or birthday party ever being much of a draw. If, god forbid, I were to use copyrighted music in it, I highly doubt the feds are gonna come bust in my door--after all, I've never paid anyone for the rights to sing "Happy Birthday" at the party itself.
If you and your friends are at home, watching a movie you made, likely staring the very same friends watching it with you, I say you're free to use whatever music you want to use. No matter how you cut it, this is nothing more than private use. There is no public distribution and no need to bring in the laws and regulations it entails.
If this were anything more than a home movie, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. You seem to be making an extremely big deal over nothing.
I'll let you know if ever I'm arrested for having a CD play in the background while sitting alone in the basement watching a movie.
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Actor
- Senior member
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- Real name: Sterling Prophet
- Location: Ohio, USA
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Every country has its own copyright law. I'm not a lawyer but as I understand it this is what U.S. copyright law says:
Copyright does not give the copyright holder absolute control over his work. There are "fair use" and other exceptions.
Now suppose I build a system that automatically and precisely switches the CD tracks around while the movie is playing? Now I have the same situation as above except that I've taken myself out of the loop. Is this illegal? Maybe. It's a gray area. But it certainly does not violate the spirit of the law
Copyright does not give the copyright holder absolute control over his work. There are "fair use" and other exceptions.
Whether this is legal or illegal depends on where you got the "master" that you are copying. If you rented it from a video store or borrowed it from a friend then making the copy is illegal. However, if you purchased it then you have every right to "archive" it, i.e., make a copy and watch only the copy while you put the master away for safe keeping, thus minimizing the chance of it being damaged by repeated viewings.FILM-THURSO wrote:It's amazing how many of you advocate breach of copyright law. How's about I copy one of your films for "home use only"...
When you charge admission the law says your friends and family stop being friends and family and change into customers. And the place where you show the film ceases to be your home and become your place of business.FILM-THURSO wrote:... and charge my friends and family an admission fee into the bargain.
But the law provides for home use. When you purchase a DVD or video you buy not only a physical copy of the film but also a license to show it to your friends and family in your home.FILM-THURSO wrote: Home use or otherwise THE LAW IS THE LAW 8O
But is the intent really criminal? If I've paid for a music CD then I have the right to play it in my house while family and friends are present. Does playing the CD prohibit me from simultaneously projecting my home movies. No. Does it prohibit me from using the CD's remote to control which track of the CD is playing during certain parts of the movie? Again, no.FILM-THURSO wrote: The bottom line is that a submission has been made here asking about music sources and that is tracable to the original writers- that's all of us! Who needs to tell, we've already made our interests know on the world wide web that the FBI like to keep a check on and quite right too. Think people before you blurt out criminal intent.
Now suppose I build a system that automatically and precisely switches the CD tracks around while the movie is playing? Now I have the same situation as above except that I've taken myself out of the loop. Is this illegal? Maybe. It's a gray area. But it certainly does not violate the spirit of the law
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FILM-THURSO
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- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:57 am
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All well and good but NOT all of us are in the US and to that end it is WISE TO CHECK the law of the country you are in.
"Reasonable use" exists here too but that didn't stop a criminal prosecution being brought against an amateur film-maker recently.
The purchase of a DVD, CD etc only allows a license to use the recording within your own home but the license can be revoked by the copyright proprietor at any time and they could then demand the return of all copies. Extreme and unlikely but still possible because you can't own a copyrighted property until you own the copyright.
From the copyright warning on Guild tapes:
It is unlawful to......
Show the film to any public or private audience whether fee-paying or
not.
From BBC tapes:
The copyright in this videogram will be infringed by unauthorised
copying, broadcasting, transmission to subscribers to a diffusion
service and by causing it to be seen or heard in public.
"In public" can be simply by way of neigbours hearing the soundtrack through the walls of your home or in the street whilst your windows are open. It is also possible to commit copyright infringment by listening to your portable tape/cd/minidisc in a public place with head/ear phones and the sound up loud. This is covered by the term "in whole or in part" meaning not just the whole thing or section of the whole thing i.e. an excerpt but also by way of being able to hear individual parts of the instrumentation within the recording e.g.- the drum beat on any givin track. If you can hear the music even in terms of base thump from drum beats outside your local nightclub, this too can be a breach of copyright license as the sound is being heard outwith the area designated by the licensing relavent to it's playback on the premisses.
Criminal intent or "flying with the crows- shot with the crows". If you are in a bank and suddenly one of your friends bursts in and robs the bank you can be held as an "accesory to the crime" if you are aquainted with the person/s committing the crime.
It is unlawful to commit copyright theft
It is unlawful to loan or borrow copyright properties regardless of relationship between the parties concerned.
It is unlawful to handle stolen goods (passing on or selling illegal copies)
It is unlawful to posses stolen goods including illeagal copies of tapes/records/CDs/Minidiscs/DVDs/Videotapes etc.
You don't have to commit copyright theft to be in breach of the law. Even if you have had nothing to do with theft in any terms and bought or were givin an item which was accepted in good faith you are still in breach of the law because the item is not lawfully yours to posses.
Whether a copyright breach has been committed is often determined by definition of wording- what is meant by the terms applied and a copyright lawyer (or any lawyer for that) will hit you from any angle he can by taking the meanings of words to extremes. In all the law of whatever area can often reach silly but law is law.
Do you know that in the UK drivers still have to carry a bail of hay in the front and a bucket and shovel in the back.- The hay is for the horse to eat, the shovel and bucket are to clean up after the horse and stupid as it is, it IS THE LAW.
If you build that system to do the track switching automatically your are still not out of the loop because YOU BUILT THE SYSTEM which makes your intent obvious.
"Reasonable use" exists here too but that didn't stop a criminal prosecution being brought against an amateur film-maker recently.
The purchase of a DVD, CD etc only allows a license to use the recording within your own home but the license can be revoked by the copyright proprietor at any time and they could then demand the return of all copies. Extreme and unlikely but still possible because you can't own a copyrighted property until you own the copyright.
From the copyright warning on Guild tapes:
It is unlawful to......
Show the film to any public or private audience whether fee-paying or
not.
From BBC tapes:
The copyright in this videogram will be infringed by unauthorised
copying, broadcasting, transmission to subscribers to a diffusion
service and by causing it to be seen or heard in public.
"In public" can be simply by way of neigbours hearing the soundtrack through the walls of your home or in the street whilst your windows are open. It is also possible to commit copyright infringment by listening to your portable tape/cd/minidisc in a public place with head/ear phones and the sound up loud. This is covered by the term "in whole or in part" meaning not just the whole thing or section of the whole thing i.e. an excerpt but also by way of being able to hear individual parts of the instrumentation within the recording e.g.- the drum beat on any givin track. If you can hear the music even in terms of base thump from drum beats outside your local nightclub, this too can be a breach of copyright license as the sound is being heard outwith the area designated by the licensing relavent to it's playback on the premisses.
Criminal intent or "flying with the crows- shot with the crows". If you are in a bank and suddenly one of your friends bursts in and robs the bank you can be held as an "accesory to the crime" if you are aquainted with the person/s committing the crime.
It is unlawful to commit copyright theft
It is unlawful to loan or borrow copyright properties regardless of relationship between the parties concerned.
It is unlawful to handle stolen goods (passing on or selling illegal copies)
It is unlawful to posses stolen goods including illeagal copies of tapes/records/CDs/Minidiscs/DVDs/Videotapes etc.
You don't have to commit copyright theft to be in breach of the law. Even if you have had nothing to do with theft in any terms and bought or were givin an item which was accepted in good faith you are still in breach of the law because the item is not lawfully yours to posses.
Whether a copyright breach has been committed is often determined by definition of wording- what is meant by the terms applied and a copyright lawyer (or any lawyer for that) will hit you from any angle he can by taking the meanings of words to extremes. In all the law of whatever area can often reach silly but law is law.
Do you know that in the UK drivers still have to carry a bail of hay in the front and a bucket and shovel in the back.- The hay is for the horse to eat, the shovel and bucket are to clean up after the horse and stupid as it is, it IS THE LAW.
If you build that system to do the track switching automatically your are still not out of the loop because YOU BUILT THE SYSTEM which makes your intent obvious.
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Old Uncle Barry
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FILM-THURSO
- Posts: 355
- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:57 am
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Well guys fortunately in Scotland there is no tresspass law so we can walk anywhere we want so long as we don't enter ground regarded as "garden space" or cause damage or disturbance and as for my employers they do supply me with pens and they are well aware that they go home with me- and back again because I don't need more pens than I already have in the house. Moreover there are regular mailshots from charities and market research groups that supply the country with pens so I've no need to nick any and boring as it is I don't take towels from hotels either. Stick to the subject people.
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Actor
- Senior member
- Posts: 1562
- Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:12 am
- Real name: Sterling Prophet
- Location: Ohio, USA
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Right! Which is why I tried to make it clear that my comments applied only to U.S. law.FILM-THURSO wrote:All well and good but NOT all of us are in the US and to that end it is WISE TO CHECK the law of the country you are in.
In some cities in the U.S. there is still a law on the books requiriing all operators of motor vehicles to send a footman ahead with a flag to warn horsemen before prodeeding into the town.FILM-THURSO wrote:Do you know that in the UK drivers still have to carry a bail of hay in the front and a bucket and shovel in the back.- The hay is for the horse to eat, the shovel and bucket are to clean up after the horse and stupid as it is, it IS THE LAW.
A town in Pennsylvania has a law that states "no person shall allow a lion to roam free in the streets of this city." Makes me wonder why they felt a need to pass that one.
Kansas law requires that when two trains meet at an intersection both shall come to a complete stop and neither shall proceed until the other has passed.
In California it is illegal to shoot a whale from an automobile.
You speak of the law as though it were some kind of religious dogma.
What the intent of the law is and what is literally written down don't always agree, thus we have judges to decide whether a law applies. Laws are usually designed to protect someone from something else. If I took someone's music without their permission, rented a convention hall, and charged admission for strangers to listen, I would certainly be breaking the law--both as written and understood. If I bought a CD of someone's music and played it at home and the postman happened to hear it through the mail slot when delivering the mail, while this may break the literal law, no sane person would ever suggest it violated the intent of the law, and certainly no judge would.
If someone were playing loud music and neighbors could hear the bass, I could see calling the police on the grounds of disturbing the peace, but not on copyright violation.
The law is not not meant to be read in a manner so strict that it's reduced to lunacy.
What the intent of the law is and what is literally written down don't always agree, thus we have judges to decide whether a law applies. Laws are usually designed to protect someone from something else. If I took someone's music without their permission, rented a convention hall, and charged admission for strangers to listen, I would certainly be breaking the law--both as written and understood. If I bought a CD of someone's music and played it at home and the postman happened to hear it through the mail slot when delivering the mail, while this may break the literal law, no sane person would ever suggest it violated the intent of the law, and certainly no judge would.
If someone were playing loud music and neighbors could hear the bass, I could see calling the police on the grounds of disturbing the peace, but not on copyright violation.
The law is not not meant to be read in a manner so strict that it's reduced to lunacy.
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FILM-THURSO
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- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:57 am
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Some people in the music business are perhaps "insane" enough to persue claims on the thinnest premiss.
Back in the 1980s a well know composer of synthetic score took a case against another composer over a piece of music that was said to be the same. On first listening there was no aparent likeness what so ever but in musical terms when the work was disected it was found to contain arrangements very similar to the first composers work. As bazzaar as some claims may be the music industry or Hollywood generally has enough cookies to make extreme law suites likely and as we don't know what's around the next corner is it worth taking the chance thinking it so minute that you wouldn't be prosecuted. The world has gone law-suite mad you know. It's definately silly yes but it is a point worth noting that you could file a suit against a work collegue for something as small as being able to smell his last fart! 8O
I'm not taking about law being upheld in such strick terms, only that there are those who will enforce the law on their strick terms.
Back in the 1980s a well know composer of synthetic score took a case against another composer over a piece of music that was said to be the same. On first listening there was no aparent likeness what so ever but in musical terms when the work was disected it was found to contain arrangements very similar to the first composers work. As bazzaar as some claims may be the music industry or Hollywood generally has enough cookies to make extreme law suites likely and as we don't know what's around the next corner is it worth taking the chance thinking it so minute that you wouldn't be prosecuted. The world has gone law-suite mad you know. It's definately silly yes but it is a point worth noting that you could file a suit against a work collegue for something as small as being able to smell his last fart! 8O
I'm not taking about law being upheld in such strick terms, only that there are those who will enforce the law on their strick terms.
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schematic2
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just as a follow up....I recieved the music from http://www.bigdogmusicdesign.com/ It certainly fits the bill for my needs. I don't have the time or patience to create my own, so the price and selection is very appealing.
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FilmIs4Ever
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mattias
- Posts: 8356
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there's a huge difference between performing and deriving. very little is considered "fair use" when it comes to using other people's work as part of your own. you probably won't get caught if you don't show it to the public, something i've taken advantage of myself many times, but it's still not legal and whether it's ok or not is only up to you and your ethical standards.jumar wrote:Have you ever whistled a tune? Have you ever sung Happy Birthday to anyone? Well, I sure hope you had performance rights, because THE LAW IS THE LAW.
/matt
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Lucas Lightfeat
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I believe that in England and Wales at least the bale of hay law only applied to Hackney carriages (black cabs), though I guess it could be different in Scotland. There's also the one about a pregnant woman being able to demand a policeman's helmet to piss in etc etc. Here's a few more - they're a bit strange for sure:FilmIs4Ever wrote:Do people really have to carry a pale of hay and a shovel with them in their cars in Scotland????????????
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/524998.stm
All english males over the age 14 are to carry out 2 or so hours of longbow practice a week supervised by the local clergy.
London hackney carriages (taxis/cabs) must carry a bale of hay and a sack of oats.
A chelsea pensioner may not be impersonated.
A bed may not be hung out of a window.
Mince pies are not to be eaten on christmas day.
Any boy under the age of 10 may not see a naked mannequin.
It is illegal for an MP to enter the house of commons wearing a full suit of armour.
It is legal for a male to urinate in public, as long it is on the rear wheel of his motor vehicle and his right hand is on the vehicle.
Placing a postage stamp that bears the queen upside down is considered treason.
It is illegal for a woman to be topless in public except as a clerk in a tropical fish store!
This is what comes of being ruled by inbred toffs for the last thousand or so years. Oh well, what can you do?
Lucas