OT - The fastest growing crime

[MattPacini]

Roger, I believe that guy, because everything he says mirrors exactly what happened to me, to the "T", so what he's saying sounds pretty much 100% credible.
If I told someone I'd seen naked pictures of their wife, they might laugh it off, but if I started telling them where her birthmarks or tattoo's were, suddenly I would sound much more credible. (Silly example, but I think you get my drift).
If I hadn't had an experience that was exactly as he described, then sure, I'd probably think he was making all that stuff up too, so I'm not just randomly deciding to trust some stranger for absolutely no reason.

Here's what happened to me in a nutshell:

PayPal instantly takes the money from my account with no explanation other than a "fraudulent payment" email.

Form email responses with generic answers when I tried to find out WHAT exactly happened, and when.
I had to hunt to get their phone number, got the major runaround until I was able to talk to a human being, who would tell me nothing other than that the buyer paid his PayPal account fraudulently, and I was responsible for "not screening my clients"!!!!!! I thought THEY were screening THEIR clients????.
Wouldn't tell me WHAT kind of fraudulent payment, what date, nothing.

The buyer, I should add, was registered, verified, the whole works.
There was NOTHING suspicious in any way about this person, and the chargeback to me happened well over a month after the initial transaction.
There simply was no way I could have known this was going to happen, and nothing I could have done about it.
I falsely thought that PayPal was screening out scumbags, because all their "you're safe with us" advertising BS makes you think that.

The real clencher is, that they let the guy continue doing this for a couple months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe they're willing to help people who are doing a ton of business with them, and figure us little guys doing a couple thousand a year with them aren't worth bothering with, I don't know.
And I do hope they're gotten better, for everyone's sake.
I just won't risk it after what happened to me, and I've know others who have had the same experiences that I have, by the way, and since ebay took over.

And jeesh, it really doesn't bother you guys that a company has an attachment into your checking account, with NO MAXIMUM LIMIT to how much they can take out of your account?

Matt Pacini

[Alex]

That PayPal phone number you have may be worth GOLD! I'd start an ebay auction and offer the phone number information to the winning bidder.

This does two things. You WILL make some money doing this, and two, it will shame ebay into publicizing the phone number when they see how many people bid on the PayPal phone number information.

[MattPacini]

Good idea!
Actually, I might "shame them" into cancelling my ebay account!
I'm sure they don't want any bad advertising about PayPal to show up on ebay.

Matt

[Alex]

So that means it was a bad idea.

[MovieStuff]

PayPal instantly takes the money from my account with no explanation other than a "fraudulent payment" email.

Yes, but they didn't freeze your entire account. They merely reclaimed the funds that were in question. That is a legitimate right and I would do the same if I was left holding the bag. Again, PayPal isn't in the short term lending business and if someone pays you with a bad card or check, the PayPal will want the money back because it isn't yours. The "I Hate PayPal" URLs are full of people that just don't understand that.

I was responsible for "not screening my clients"!!!!!! I thought THEY were screening THEIR clients????.

Actually, they do, Matt. Getting a verified PayPal account now take quite a few steps but having a verified account doesn't mean that someone won't bounce a check or that the person is honest.

The buyer, I should add, was registered, verified, the whole works.

Then that means you knew the buyer's verified address and where to send the police when you filed charges for theft.

There was NOTHING suspicious in any way about this person, and the chargeback to me happened well over a month after the initial transaction.

And, in the meantime, you had full access to all the funds in question. Again, PayPal isn't in the short term lending business but, in reality, they do act on a bit of faith on your behalf, wouldn't you say?

There simply was no way I could have known this was going to happen, and nothing I could have done about it.

But, unless PayPal knew this was going to happen, then I'm not sure what the beef is. Again, they are nothing but a courier for the money, Matt. I mean, let's say I hand you a check for $500 and ask you to go to the store and give it to the man behind the counter because I owe him money. So you take the check and agree to do the delivery for a percentage of the tranaction. A few weeks later, the check bounces for some reason and, suddenly, the man behind the counter comes to you and wants his money. Are you going to give it to him out of your own pocket? Of course not! And why should you? It's not your problem and you really don't have any stake in the situation. You have no obligation to this guy and you certainly don't have to help him retrieve his funds from me. My honesty isn't your problem. But to believe the people that post on paypalsucks.com, they expect PayPal to cough up the dough every time someone runs a scam and leaves the seller high and dry. Sorry, but that's not the way the real world works.

I've know others who have had the same experiences that I have, by the way, and since ebay took over.

Again, lots of people bounce checks and claim it's the bank's fault. I put little stock in what these people say because, frankly, I think they just don't understand how the system works.

And jeesh, it really doesn't bother you guys that a company has an attachment into your checking account, with NO MAXIMUM LIMIT to how much they can take out of your account?

That information is not correct. More importantly, ANY store or merchant that you give a check to has your routing number and account number and can electronically submit a debit of any size at any time without your approval. It won't be legal but they have exactly the same access to your account as PayPal. There is no difference. Likewise, PayPal is not legally allowed to withdraw funds unless you legitimately owe the money to them. Stories to the contrary are myth promoted, again, by people that either can't balance their own checkbooks or simply don't understand how the system works.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience under PayPal's previous owners. I truly believe you'd have a better experience now but I can understand why you'd be gun-shy.

Roger

[MattPacini]

“Then that means you knew the buyer's verified address and where to send the police when you filed charges for theft.
Roger

(MP): Wrong, Roger.
You don’t get at all what my beef with them is.
This is my biggest complaint, that PayPal would not give me any information to prosecute this guy. I DID go to the police, and the FBI Internet Fraud division, and they told me there was nothing they could do with so little info.
Think how stupid you sound, telling the investigator that you’ve been defrauded, but you don’t know WHAT kind of fraudulent device (Check? Credit card?), or WHEN it happened? All you have is an email from PayPal saying they’ve charged back your account because of fraud, and NO info that even gives the police enough to file a report!!!
I’m not mad a PayPal because this guy scammed me.
I’m mad because they would not give me ANY information about the guy to go after him on my own, and I’m also mad that they let him keep on scamming other people and that when he scammed me, he had already burnt several other people also.
You obviously have not been through this.

“… But, unless PayPal knew this was going to happen, then I'm not sure what the beef is.
Roger

(MP): Well, my argument is, that since he was already screwing people with this scam BEFORE he screwed me, that they DID know this was going to happen.
I’ll make it simple for everyone to understand:

He scammed others, PayPal didn’t cut him off, they just took the money from his victims.
He scammed me, PayPal didn’t cut him off, they just took the money from me.
He scammed others after me, PayPal didn’t cut him off, they just took the money from his victims.

I spoke with most of his other victims, in fact that’s how I got PayPal’s phone number. They all had the same experience I had, will Bill Blake (the scammer) and with PayPal. Some of these guys lost thousands of dollars, and there was nothing they could do about it.
Another unpleasant thing I found out (this is from the mouth of an FBI agent, so I’m not just getting this off some website!) is that unless the dollar amount is really great in internet fraud (I forget the exact amount, but it was something like $50,000) the Internet Fraud unit doesn’t bother with it.
They refer you to the local police, and get this: you have to prosecute USING THE SCAMMERS LOCAL POLICE AND COURTS, NOT YOURS!!!
So, let’s say, you live in Texas, and I scam you, and I live in California, you have to COME HERE TO GO TO COURT TO PROSECUTE ME.
If you don’t believe me, then call the cops & ask ‘em yourself.

….. ANY store or merchant that you give a check to has your routing number and account number and can electronically submit a debit of any size at any time without your approval. It won't be legal but they have exactly the same access to your account as PayPal. There is no difference. …”
Roger

(MP): There IS a difference, because since you agreed in your PayPal contract to let them do this, it IS legal! HUGE difference, and totally different!!!!


Matt Pacini

[Alex]

I've heard that $50,000 dollar figure before. That the FBI will only get involved if the theft is for $50,000 or more. However, it seems to me that if the TOTAL amount of the all the theft reaches that figure, the FBI SHOULD g get involved.

I find it insulting and illogical that if one person loses $50,000 the FBI gets involved, but if 10 people lose $50,000 thousand dollars then the FBI won't get involved.

Perhaps they have a group rate ripoff plan? 8O

[MattPacini]

The thing about this is, we all have this false sense of security, based on creative advertising of companies like ebay & PayPal, and the fact that not a day goes by that we don't hear some politician or top law enforcement official proclaiming on TV how they've passed all this "tough, anti-crime, anti-internet fraud" legislation, or whatever, and then you actually get scammed, and you see an entirely different thing going on.
Basically the police, government agencies, and large companies do anything they can, to make the process as difficult to navigate as possible, so you will simply go away and stop making their job harder.

If PayPal would CLEARLY state up front, that if you get scammed, YOU are going to pay for it, then I'd be happier.
The fact that this guy scammed other,s and continued this scam after me, leads me to believe that they weren't even touching his money.
I'm not sure of that, but if they were, how was he continuing to burn people?
They should AT THE VERY LEAST have a feedback and rating system like ebay, but of course, that would blow the pretense of them screening people, right?
Remember, this guy didn't just do this once.
You can talk about "how could they know he would do this" 'till you're blue in the face, but the fact that he was screwing people for a couple months, and they let him continue, shows total disregard for other customers safety.

Matt Pacini

[Alex]

I don't sell on ebay (I just buy), but if I did, I would put the paypal phone number up for bid. It's probably a good thing I don't sell on ebay.

One other option is to write to the Calfornia State Attorney General. Heck, just print out this topic and send it to them and see if they are interested.
Taking on ebay or paypal is high profile and yet very important if there is a wrong to right, it could help everybody get on the same page.

You can also write any State Attorney General form any state. If just one bites on this issue, you will have done a lot of good.

[MovieStuff]

“Then that means you knew the buyer's verified address and where to send the police when you filed charges for theft.

(MP): Wrong, Roger.

Why? You previously said the guy was verified. If the guy was verified then you had his address. So either you sold to a verified buyer or you didn't. Now, I don't know what PayPal's rules were under old ownership but their current rules are very clear: If you sell to an unverified buyer then you are on your own. If you sell to a verified buyer, then PayPal will assist you. They've assisted me from the very beginning, long before I did thousands of dollars worth of business, so the idea that they only help the larger accounts simply isn't true.

you don’t know WHAT kind of fraudulent device (Check? Credit card?),

The guy wrote a check. At least that's what you've posted before about this transaction. You said that when his check to PayPal bounced, PayPal wanted their money back. Also, how he funded his transaction is listed in your PayPal account log, be it from a bank account, credit card or check.

or WHEN it happened?

The date is also clearly stated in your PayPal account log.

I spoke with most of his other victims, in fact that’s how I got PayPal’s phone number. They all had the same experience I had, will Bill Blake (the scammer) and with PayPal.

So you know the guy's name is Bill Blake.

All you have is an email from PayPal saying they’ve charged back your account because of fraud, and NO info that even gives the police enough to file a report!!!

Well, again, I guess I'm not getting the point. You sold to a verified buyer, which means you had his address. You also know that the guy's name is Bill Blake. Plus your PayPal account clearly indicates the funding source (a check) and the exact date of the transaction. How much more information do you need? More to the point, what sort of information did PayPal not give you that wasn't already at your fingertips via your account log?

ANY store or merchant that you give a check to has your routing number and account number and can electronically submit a debit of any size at any time without your approval. It won't be legal but they have exactly the same access to your account as PayPal. There is no difference. …”
Roger

(MP): There IS a difference, because since you agreed in your PayPal contract to let them do this, it IS legal!

Nope. There is nothing in the PayPal contract that allows them to just suck funds of any amount from your bank with no legitimate reason. The mechanism is there to withdraw funds, yes. But the amount they are allowed to take out is limited to funds they have a right to access based on specific transactions.

This is the EXACT same mechanism and governing process for ANY merchant, not just PayPal. There is nothing special about giving PayPal your bank information. You do the exact same thing every time you write a check to a merchant in a store because everything they need is printed on your check and they can use that information to debit your account at any time, if they wanted, long after your initial check has been cashed. So the level of trust is the same, regardless of whether you write a check to a store or give PayPal your banking info. Neither has the right to access your account on a whim to withdraw funds. They are only allowed to access the money they have a legal right to and there is nothing in the PayPal contract that gives them carte blanche.

Look, I'm not doubting that you had a problem with some sleazy guy and that you feel PayPal should have done more. But I am saying that you were essentially dealing with a different organization and that your broad proclamations about PayPal today are not based on anything currently substantial. The only REAL experience you have is with different owners at a different time and the only stories you've heard are most likely from disorganized losers that simply repeat popular myth; people that you know no more about than the guy who originally scammed you. I mean, you trusted him at one point, didn't you? Do you trust me? Do you think I'm trying to lead you astray? Why doesn't MY experience of hundreds of successful transactions and multiple thousands of dollars via PayPal mean anything? Think about it.

If PayPal would CLEARLY state up front, that if you get scammed, YOU aregoing to pay for it, then I'd be happier.

Well, in fact, they do. But, even without a clarification like that, why would you think otherwise? Again, they're just a delivery service for the money. Why would you even consider that they'd just give you the dough anyway if someone pays for a transaction fraudulantly. I mean, they'd go broke!

Roger

[MattPacini]

Roger, you're really missing the point here.
Yeah, I have the guy's name & address, just like I have YOUR name and address, but that's doesn't mean didly to the cops!

Yeah, PayPal told me he paid them with a fraudulent check, but wouldn't tell me the date that the check was issued to them, or even when it was charged back to them.
The only date I had, was the the date of the email they sent me, which means nothing to the cops.
Here is pretty much what the conversation with the police sounded like:

Can you send us a copy of the check?
Me: "no, PayPal will not gie me a copy of the check"
Who name is on the check?
Me: "I don't know"
Was it a personal check?
Me: "I don't know"
Was it a business check?
Me: "I don't know"
Was it a cashiers check?
Me: "I don't know"
Was it a stolen check?
Me: "I don't know"
Was it a forged check?
Me: "I don't know"
Was it a closed account?
Me: "I don't know"
Can you tell us what bank it was drawn on?
Me: "No, PayPal will not give me that information."
What date was the check returned?
Me: "I don't know"
I'm sorry sir, but there's simply no proof that you have been defrauded.
If you can get evidence from PayPal, we'd be glad to file a report... etc. etc.

- That's pretty much how it went.
The cop was really helpful, to the extent he could be.
I mean, he told me that even though there was nothing he could "officially" do to the guy with this lack of information, he did actually call Bill Blake and tell him to pay me, etc. making it sound like he was going to get in trouble, but Bill Blake obviously saw through his bluff.
Bill Blake Special FX, in Southern California if anyone is interested.
Do not EVER do business with this guy.

Matt Pacini

[Splee]

I have had absolutely no problems whatsoever with PayPal. However, sites like paypalsucks.com are hardly a constructive or helpful way to deal with problems. The whole thing is obviously very one-sided, and ignores all the positive experience people have had. Also, it's the sort of site that ends up spreading highly spurious stories that become urban myths.

Lee

[MovieStuff]

Roger, you're really missing the point here.
Yeah, I have the guy's name & address, just like I have YOUR name and address, but that's doesn't mean didly to the cops!

Respectfully, Matt, YOU'RE missing the point. You could have given all the information you're referring to but it would have STILL made no difference to the cops. Why? Because the check wasn't written to you. You can't file bad check charges against this guy because he bounced a check to PayPal. But you CAN file a claim for fraud against him in small claims court and for that you had all the information you needed to prove you case.

Roger

[mercyboy]

i'm not taking sides on the paypal issue, since i think they're just another business--neither friend nor foe. but cnn has an article about them just having been fined $150,000.00 for misrepresentation to customers. it takes a lot of complaints to get a company fined like that!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/03/08/payp ... index.html

[mercyboy]

For those of you who feel wronged by PayPal as written on this thread, be advised that PayPal has just released the terms of a class action settlement where you can submit claims to them to be drawn from a fund of over 9 million dollars. They even have a special "dispute resolution claimants" category for those who experienced unauthorized electronic transfers by PayPal due to buyer complaints, refunds, etc.., as it sounds like some here have experienced. Check it out because you have to file a claim to collect, or you will default into the general pool fund to be distributed evenly with all PayPal members throughout the world...and that won't net you anything, as it's basically designed to give PayPal/Ebay some pain (like electric shock treatment) so they don't think they can make their biz easier and even more profitable at our cost. For more info, go to: https://www.paypal.com/settlement/