Hi people
in the coloumn abot the sync.sound there isn't the way I use to shoot my film. )
I shoot with a live sync. sound! And now your question is "how do you do"? Eh eh...!!
The heart of the system is a little electronic part made for me by a technical. This part is controlled from the sync. flash socket of the camera. This electronic part opens the microphone when the sync.-flash socket begans to work. Near the camera I have putted with a "strach" ( don't know the name in English; it is used to close the jackets too) a mini-disc recorder. The mic. over the camera is connected to recorder and to the electronic part.
These are the steps for live recording:
1) I get the picture and the focus
2) I switch on the recorder, but it records the silence because the mic. is close;
3) I began to shoot; the elec. part open the microphone; the mini-disk begans to record the live sound.
4) I stop the camera; the mic is closed.
5) I stop the recorder.
Now I have a sound track which begans and finish when the scena begans and finish!!
6) I stripe the film with my weberling.
7) I put on the table my goko 8008, and load the film. I ear the minidisk and I press the pause-key when the sondtrack begans (my reaction time: about 4/10 sec.)
8) I find the first frame of the scene which need the live soundtrack and I switch the editor on pause. I start the minidisk and the editor and check for the speed, using the fine speed control. After two, three tests I find the right speed.
9) I repeat the step 8, but now I record.
With this way it's possible to syncronize a scene until two minute with perfect-labial sound. Really: professional result!
This solution has the advantage you haven't bring with you a "heavy artillery": only the camera and the mini-disk (the elec. part is inside the bottom of the mic.).
Best regards
Ugo Grassi
your english isn't orrible, and it isn't horrible either :-)
I know people from the US who are harder to understand.
your method sounds similar to what a lot of people are doing uisng a computer to stretch the audio to fit the length of the transfered shots. If I understand your method correctly someone could do a similar thing without the flash socket by using a slate at the beginning and a tail slate at the end of each shot, of course that would be more work while shooting, and take more film.
Right, my method is similar to a "ciack" at the start of the scene. If you ask to a technical, will be easy for him to make the electronic circuit able "to read" the sync. flash socket. Isn't necessary a quartz to control the camera. During the editing it's easy to find the right speed to syncronize the soundtrack.
Of course using the minidisk I obtain a very hight quality of the sound, and it's possible to insert an other scene during the sync.sound scene...
Best regards
Ugo
(my mail: UgoGrassi@libero.it)
That´s really a nice and simple idea. You use the flash signal to detect if the camera is running or not
and ease the "wild sync" process afterwards during editing.
But once accessing the sync contact, you can do a lot of more with it, without much more effort.
Before using any sync method, I simply recorded the sound in parallel with a good walkman and tried to find out
in post, where is that part of the 45 min tape that combines with that 10 sec film scene. A lot of head breaking.
And if it had been really possible to identify the correct sound part for a scene, it was never such easy
to sync it only by regulating the pitch, as you describe. It all depends on how the absolute speeds of camera and
projector/editor are equal or not. Short alterations don´t matter, but the absolute speed a lot.
I also thought about creating some kind of mechanism, that substitutes clapboards (I really hate clapboards) and
to allow to identify sound and scene starts as well. One way is, like you do, to let the recorder run but mute
the mic when the camera is off. The other way is to let the recorder record all the time, but control the pause
with the camera (start-stop control).
Both methods have the disadvantage, that you have no access to any sound recorded before or after the actual scene,
what is sometimes VERY useful during editing. Wiht this additional sound information, you avoid that camcorder style
editing, with sound and pic cut everytime in parallel. New scene - new sound. Better would be a compact background
sound with changing scenes, showing take by take what you want to show, and joining everything together with the sound.
So I decided, that start-stop or mic mute may be an option, but not used for syncing and slating. Therefore I am using
the flash contact to record an additional sync track to the tape or MD. It is a simple circuit as yours, that makes a
beeping signal that is triggered by the flash contact. You get a beep-beep-beep-... sequence according to your frame
sequence, with stereo sound on tape or mono sound on MD.
For editing, you have two important informations:
1. at what times the camera had been running
2. at what absolute speed the camera had been running, including speed up and brake down.
You now can use that sync sound tape or MD to sync the sound in the wild sync manner, moving the pitch control of
your viewer by hand until it fits.
But I thought that it must be possible, to take advantage of the now existing sync reference pulses to shift the pitch
automatically, providing a exact sync sound without try and error. People already done that back in the 1970ies, why
not nowadays?
So I build a device called synchronizer. This device reads the camera pulses that are on your sound tape or MD
and it reads the speed of your viewer/projector/open reel tape. You only need a contact, similar the flash contact,
in the projector, viewer or open reel tapedeck. Or an opto coupler, reading the film perforation, it does not matter.
The main job of the synchronizer is to compare both pules inputs. It resolves this, by counting an internal counter
one step upwards with every sound pulse and one step downwards with every film pulse. When there is sync, the counter
result keeps the same. If one of the devices is faster, the result shifts.
The result of that counter, I transform into a small DC voltage that influences the pitch of the external devices
to be regulated.
So if your viewer becomes suddenly faster or is too fast by factory setting, the synchronizer will recognize that and
influence the pitch accordingly. That had been your job, and now it´s automatic!
The best thing is, that the system is relatively cheap, requires no crystal modifications and is very universal.
f.e. you could substitute one of the pulse signals with a crystal generator and crystal sync that way your viewer or
projector! Once crystal synced, you can do your soundtrack on PC and play it back from CD, together and in sync with
your film on the big screen!
Or you can transfer your live sound from MD to perforated open reel tape (perfo tape), that is available and undepended
from the gauge. During transfer, you keep the sync by regulating the open reel tape and reading the holes of the tape.
Then you can add music and other sound to the other tracks of the tape, step by step, and mix it to CD or film sound
stripe. No limits, and it´s only an up/down counter that manages all that!
Hi Pedro,
your solution is perfect!!! Did you build the speed control circuit? Are you able to make the outliner of it?
Anyway you live in "land of the cinema". Many friends of mine say in Munich there are a lot of store which sell super 8 hardware. I think in the future I'll visit your town.
ciao
ugo
I use the "standard" way. My camera is crystal controlled and I use the dreaded Slate at the head(In most cases). I then have a RANK transfer done and sync in my computer. The audio track is recorded on Nagra, DAT(MiniDisc if I have to but I try to avoid it these days). I use ProTools for the actual mix and pulldown.
I have seen some great work done with wild sound. And some of my small projects are done that way. It seems to me that you are doing what works best for you. Which is always the best way.
Hi Ugo,
I have circuit diagrams and layouts for printed board for all part of the system. Anybody who is interested can have a copy, there´s no secret with all that. All parts use standard components only.
The regulation of the target device (projector, viewer, tape deck) is rather indiviual and depends on the individual device. Realized up to now is Bauer T610/525/502, Braun Visacustic all models, Erno Motorviewer 1801, Goko motorviewer MM-1, Teac tapedeck A-3440 (4 chanel), Tascam tapedeck B-34 (4 chanel). Planned: Beaulieu EL708 projector, Sony pro-walkman.
Basicly, any device with a pitch control dial can be adapted, without having the circuit diagrams of the device. You only make a board where you put 5 pitch potentiometers of the same type how is inbuilt in the device. The synchronicer has a digital 5-chanel output, where it selects all the time one of the 5 potentiometers, depending on the actual speed situation and sync shift. Prior to use, you must adjust each of the 5 dials, so that the projector/viewer rans at exactly 24 fps when using the 3rd dial, at 23 fps when using the 2nd dial and at 25 fps when using the 4th one. That is the fine regulation, when sync is only 1...2 frames off. The forth and the 5th dial you set to a value that depends on the dynamic behaviour of the device, f.e. 20 and 28 fps for a projector. This is the range that is used when sync is significantly off, f.e. after a interruption and re-start.
The 5 potentiometers are controlled by opto couplers over the synchronizer. Each potentiometer is switched into the regulation circuit of the device at one time, using the clock of the framerate.
All this about flash socket sound sync may be every day fair for you, but I just can't get my head around it. Perhaps there is too much in my head already to fit it in or more likely there just isn't enough there to hold the information. For others in this state as well as me, could you post a really clear text with picture of what you are talking about? Or better yet, like Roger, why don't you make some for sale? I have a Minolta XL400 but don't even know what to plug into it. Yea, I could cut off the wire from a broken flash that looks like the one I use on my 35mm still camera if I found one at the local camera show/junk shop, but what then? Yea, I have catalogs of tiny tools and electric parts things but what to buy? I would love to be able to project sync sound S8 movies with my Cannon, it even records onto a stripe, but how to control it? I, we, need some help, a lot of it, if we're going to use S8.
Ugo,Having just taken the time to read through your thread on sync-sound maybe you just ought to put in a bid for that ST600 on ebay.From what I can conclude with my useless German is that this machine has in fact been modified for sync-pulse etc.
regular8:
I am selling some sync devices, too. But different to Roger, my biggest problem is the available time, because I am WORKING 40 hours a week and have family.
I am doing all that in the evening and at night, and I am only delivering what I am 100% shure that it is 100% working. Therefore I am not making too much propaganda and self-plug in.
My system is not very diferent from what had been popular 30 years ago but it is working. The film we are using is from the same time. Plus, my system is making the bridge to nle, controlling the film or sound speed by crystal.
That are the components that are required:
1. for shooting
1.1. shooting with prof. AV-tape decks (sep. sync track):
interface R1008AV or R1008AVS. This interface you plug into the flash socket of your camera and into the AV socket of the recorder (f.e. Sony WM-D6C AV). It transforms the switching impulses from the camera into 1000 Hz tone impulses and records them to the sync track of the tape. The AVS version is able to remote control the tape´s pause function, running and stopping the tape together with the film.
1.2 shooting with consumer stereo recorder or MD-recorders
interface R1008MD. This in interface you plug into the flash socket of your camera and into the microfone socket of the recorder. It splits both microfone chanel, uses one for recording the sync pulses and the other for recording the sound. There is another mic plug at the device, for connecting the recording microfone instead of connecting it directly to the recorder.
2. For playback and sound transfer:
2.1. when having the Elmo GS1200MO
Then it´s rather simple, you only need the (cheap) projector interface P1008GS. This interface connects to the Elmo (ESS-socket) and at the other hand to the AV socket of the tape deck or to the left line out of the MD or consumer stereo recorder. The interface reads the sync pulses and converts them to digital pulses. The projector regulates it´s speed according to this pulses and records your sound onto the stripe at the same time
2.2. when having a Bauer T610/525/502 or any Braun Visacustic
Then you need the P1008 or P1008Q synchronizer. This synchronizer performs the digital speed regulation for the projector. When having a Braun projector, you can connect directly to it´s sync socket, when having a Bauer, you need additionally the Bauer interface B1008S, you put into the case of the bauer and connect it to the motor control.
The P1008 synchronizer you connect to the AV recorder or left chanel consumer recorder to read the pulses. The projector you connect to the projector jack of the P1008. Then switch the P1008 to "sync" and the projector to "play". THe projector will keep waiting for the sound with lamp off. Now you start the sound playback, and at the time when the very first sync impulse is coming, the synchronizer starts and regulates the projector motor according to the sound. At the same time you transfer the soundtrack to the film stripe.
3. for editing sound and film separatly with tape decks
3.1. you need a tape deck type Teac A3440 or Tascam B34. It has 4 independend chanels and allows you to record 4 tracks in parallel and mix them to your individual sound track. For transfering your life sound to the tape without loosing the sync information, you need to control the speed of the tape according to the sync pulses. For this, you need to inbuilt the interface T1008MS into the tape deck. Now it can be connected to the synchonizer P1008 in the same way like the projector and will be regulated in the same way.
3.2. in order to make your sound track story board, you need a refernce to the frame numbers of your film, you need a counter for the absolute frame numbers. That is the job for the C1008D. It counts up to 99999 frames and can be connected to the counter output of the P1008 or to the converted tape deck or viewer. Now you can foreward your tape to the exact frame number like you have put into your story board for recording a specific sound.
3.3. For controlling how the sound and the film are combining together, it would be practical, if you had a motor viewer that runs your film according to the speed of the tape. This is possible with the Erno EM1801 or the Goko MM-1 viewer and my interface E1008MS. Now the synchronizer reads the pulses from the Teac/Tascam machine and controls the speed of the viewer, showing you your film according to your new edited sound track.
4. Crystal options
the crystal version of the synchronizer P1008Q enables you, to run the projector, the viewer or the tape deck with exact crystal frequency. This way, you easyly interface to PC or MAC or Video or CD:
4.1. Releasing your soundtrack on CD and film show with CD sound
Complete your soundtrack first on your Teac or Tascam tape deck. Now sample the complete soundtrack. While sampling, you run the tape deck connected to P1008Q and set the input selector to "crystal 16, 18, 24 or 25 fps"´The tape will run as rock steady as any CD and you can burn your sound CD out of the audio file.
For the show, you connect your projector to the P1008Q (Elmo GS1200, Bauer T610/525/502, Braun Visacustic) and play the CD in parallel to the film. It will keep in sync without any problems.
4.2. Editing the sound directly on PC/MAC
First you transfer your final cutted footage with a video cam or a good web cam and the projector. The projector must be connected to P1008Q to be forced to run at crystal accurancy.
Now you add your music and other sound in your editing software. Life sound you sample, too and squeeze it to the correct scene length, looking at the pulses on the left track. Export the complete audio to a wave file and burn it. Show it like in 4.1.
4.3. Recording sound from feature filmes (video/DVD) to S8 releases.
Only control the projector with the P1008Q, running it at crystal sync. Now it will fit with your video tape or DVD and you can record the sound in good quality or another language.
All diagrams and layouts are free for anyone who is interested. Perhaps Andreas is interested to load them up to his page?
I am prepairing an interface for the Beaulieu projector and a wireless interface for the camera (no cable to the recorder required!)
I forgot one thing:
The system also works with projectors of other types. But in this case, it is neccessary, that the sound is edited on a Teac or Tascam deck. The projector must have an flash socket or reed relay, that outputs 1 impulse per frame. This impulse is read by the digital input of the syncrhonizer P1008 and used to control the tape deck with the sound, during the sound transfer is beeing performed.
Pedro
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