PC for editing

[mercyboy]

but i used the internet for the first time in 1988 (email and mud) and had a personal web page in 1993. to give you an idea of how early that was the list of all web sites out there was one html-doc only. i was number 300 something. ;-)

/matt

yo, matt! you and al gore beat me to the net for sure! what can i say, i didn't like modems until they could out run my fax. i hope you bought some one-word .com domain names to resell to us late adopters.

[seekaee]

i i'm not familiar with macs so from what i know today, upgrading, trouble shooting may be a problem.

I forgot to mention`this but yeah, you can upgrade just about every part on a mac except for one- THE MOTHERBOARD, and the only way your gonna get a new Motherboard is buying a new Mac--or if your lucky--find one on ebay. :roll:

[soundboy]

i i'm not familiar with macs so from what i know today, upgrading, trouble shooting may be a problem.

I forgot to mention`this but yeah, you can upgrade just about every part on a mac except for one- THE MOTHERBOARD, and the only way your gonna get a new Motherboard is buying a new Mac--or if your lucky--find one on ebay. :roll:

Forget buying one off @pple I got a quote last year for a G3 motherboard it was $600 Aud....

I asked the rep why it was soooo much he said your buyiing Rolls Royce gear not a Ford... typical MAC smart ass

[T-Scan]

i went to pricewatch.com and found a store called american computech. so far its the best online computer customtomising store i've come accross. i configured a system just to get a price and it came out to a little over $1500. that included duel 120 gig drives, gig ram. i think i'll give videoguys a call too.

[Pedro]

I am only familiar with € prices, but this may be similar with $ rating, or at least in the same range.

The cheapest way to video editing with a new mac is to get an
eMac G4 with Superdrive (integrated 17" CTR), for about € 1100
and a firewire DV converter box for about € 250. DigitalVideo can be imported directly via firewire, or using a DV-converter (f.e. Dazzle Hollywood bridge etc.) as composite or S-Video. A collegue of mine is doing a lot of video editing this way and is very happy. Of course, any pro video editor software (final cut or premiere) is extra, while iMovie (for the first steps) is included and comes installed.


New iMacs with superdrive and 17" flat display 16:9 ratio are rated at € 1750. It should be mentioned, that the included display is extraordinary good and not comparable with discounter displays. You can easyly adjust the color temperature to known Kelvin values, as familiar for every photografer. Interfacing and video importing would be the same thing as with eMac. (The latest iMac with 20" display goes for € 2450.)

Tower-Macs with separate display have the advantage that they can easyly be upgraded with additional hardware, f.e. internal capturing cards, cheaper than external firewire adaptors.

Second hand iMacs with 17" TFT and superdrive go for under € 1000 at ebay, since the new 20" models arrived.

Even on older models, and even on G3 models, video editing runs smoothly and flawlessly with good performance. I made tests with an "old" iMac G3 / 350 MHz from year 2000.
What is the plus for using newer and faster machines, is mostly the processing time for encoding to MPEG2. My G4/800MHz iMac needs about 4-5 hours for a 100 minutes feature film (Quicktime-Encoding with highest quality, DV to MPEG2). I always start the process before going to bed, so it´s no problem for me.
During encoding videos, you can continue using the Mac with other tasks, surf in the internet, write letters, burn a DVD, cover design in Photoshop etc, no problem with multitasking under OS X.

All Macs com with a multimedia software suit, calles iLive. The suite includes iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes and iDVD.
iMovie allows simple capturing from camera and DV-converter boxes and easy (but destructive) editing, adding transitions and titles.
iMovie has direct access to iPhoto to import stills and animate them, without changing between applications, and to iTunes to import music to add&mix to the additional 2 stereo soundtracks.
The iDVD button of iMovie allows direct MPEG2 conversion including chapter markers. During the conversion process, the DVD menue can be designed in iDVD and the DVD can be burned direcly.
It´s a multimedia suite, comparable with the MSOffice suite. Trouble-free workflow, for who does not need pro-applications yet, and it comes included, installed and is free.
I like iMovie for soundtracking Super 8 movies, mixing 3 separate stereo chanels is enough in most cases, and additional dubbing always is possible.

Pedro

[christoph]

now one important factor.. if i bought a G-4 off the shelf with final cut added, would it have all the video cature/edit capabilites of the PC configuration i just mentioned? i'm not familiar with macs so from what i know today, upgrading, trouble may be a problem.

Of the shelf, your looking at $1700 for a duel G4 and $1000 for FCP 4. You might just want to get a G5 as it's only around $100 bucks more for a 1.6 Gigger.

i'll try not to be a mac salesman, but here's what i'd choose for semi pro editing on a budget:

either buy a new emac (for 799 bucks, but prolly you're better off with the superdrive model 1099) and get final cut express with it (99 with a new mac, 299 regular)...
or, preferably imo, get a second hand G4 tower for about $700 (500mhz is enough for basic edit needs) and the final cut pro package ($999).. this will allow you to use use cheap internal hard disks and a second monitor (on later models).

of course, most comfortable would be a G5 with fcp as mentioned above)
++ christoph ++

ps: fcp is much cheaper if you can get an education deal

[calgodot]

Then tell Steve Jobs to switch his Pixar render farm back to Macs since it is currently Xeons.

The US Army switched to Macs for security concerns, as stated. A render farm has no security concerns, so your witty retort misses its target. (That said, the US Army should not be regarded as computer experts. Before this latest switch, they previously went from Unix to NT, then had to pay for custom emulators to run their Unix programs. The stability offered by OSX beats any NT-based emulator!)

Macs are easy to use but that is not the only factor in selecting a personal computer. If it was, 90% of the work would be Mac.

But it's probably at least half the factor for the "client" in this case (the person who asked the question). Certainly no one who is looking for a system to edit is looking for a difficult system!

Again, blanket statements of which platform is better is silly.

Yes, they are. But how about "which platform is best for editing?" There is no question, regardless of your budget, that Final Cut Pro is a superior editing program to anything offered on the PC platform. It now dominates the professional industry, and is pretty much a one-trick show in independent production. (Keep in mind that I am typing this on a W2k based machine, with a Linux server next to it - we have a very mixed-platform home.)

I've mentioned previously that I "consult" (though not nearly as much as I used to) with pro clients in this area. In the last 3 years, all the clients who had PC-based editing systems have switched to FCP for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was stability of the platform. One client had numerous issues with digital rights management on his W2K/XP systems: original content was being pegged as protected. Since switching to FCP, he's had no problems. (Addtionally, FCP is better known: he had a hard time finding affordable editors who knew Avid; when he placed his ad for FCP editors, he got over a hundred replies.)

As for expensive Apple parts: Cheap PC motherboards usually come fomer places that have lower standards for quality control. While competition does keep many PC parts cheap, you'd be a fool to bargain shop for your motherboard. If you want to be a hot rodder and get under the hood every weekend, fine: you might end up with a clunker, you might end up with a classic. But you'll put more work into maintaining your machine than a Mac user, who will have all that extra time to edit.

Set a budget, pick the application, pick the platform, buy the hardware, work.

It's that simple for people like you and me (i.e. computing professionals). But the above sentence is alien to most non-professionals. People generally have 1-3 computing needs and everything else is luxury. (I consider internet-applications as required by all systems now, unless there are security concerns.) People on this board need video capture, video edit, and some sound editing capabilities. They don't have the time, energy and/or knowledge to research every video card, every hard drive, every system bus, etc to make sure it is 100% up to the task of AV application. They want and need an "out of box" solution. The only machine on the market today that meets that spec is a Mac (though in recognition of this fact, most Dell-like PC catalogs have an AV configuration option, which usually pushes the price up a good bit).

Look: I put a lot of money on this opinion - there is no better video editing solution for the low-budget indpendent filmmaker than Final Cut Pro. Anyone on this board looking to buy a system is best advised to purchase in that area. And stop trying to go cheap with these $600 Dell deals: those machines are the worst dogs at the pound. If they don't pee in the car on the way home, they'll pee on your desk sooner or later.

[drsanchez]

The Mac vs. PC debate is always interesting. I usually stay outside of the fray because I run Linux on a pentium II 350 mhz with dialup and a keyboard that's so dirty some of the keys stick.

Buuuuuut, I've been considering a home system for video editing and, I must say, the mac looks tempting. But one thing I'm still confused about: the eMac G4 is a 1.0 GHz chip. For the same price can't I get a 2.6 GHz pentium or AMD chip? And isn't processor speed really important in something like video editing? I guess the real question is: is a 1.0 GHz G4 chip with 512 M Ram enough for 'comfortable' video editing?

[crimsonson]

The US Army switched to Macs for security concerns, as stated.

Please reread. You are incomplete in your interpretation. He is stating that if it good enough for the military it is good enough for us regular people. I argue back that if it is not good enough for mission critical [render farms are mission critical] work for the most important Apple lover of all time, it ain't perfect.

But it's probably at least half the factor for the "client" in this case

If he actually quantified the importance of ease of use as being 'half' then it is what it is.

But how about "which platform is best for editing?"

It is no different and still silly - the fact that there is at least half dozen successful editing software 2 Avid, FCP, Vegas, Premiere, Edius, 2 Pinnacle systems, etc, etc does not make it easier nor absolute.

There is no question, regardless of your budget, that Final Cut Pro is a superior editing program to anything offered on the PC platform.

Really? How Avid DS? How about Avid Symphony? How about Avid Media/Film Composer?

now dominates the professional industry,

Really? Evidence please. No such. I would not be surprised that there are more Premiere pros than FCP.
Second, prior to FCP, Premiere dominated the prosumer, corporate and entry level market. Would you say Premiere 5 was the best editing system.
Third, as my closing line says - money is always an important factor. Often the leading factor.

In the last 3 years, all the clients who had PC-based editing systems have switched to FCP for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was stability of the platform.

Well I post supervise a facility that does long form edits [docs mostly] for major US cable networks. My personal experience - it ain't stable. I have discussed with countless editors and others in the broadcast world here in NY and US who have used the product since v1.
One thing FCP does not enjoy is the reputation of being the most stable.
Avid and Vegas enjoys that.
Avid dominates primetime network shows and theatrical released film - does that make it the right choice for him?

Cheap PC motherboards usually come fomer places that have lower standards for quality control.

MAc mobos aint perfect BTW either. Power supply issues [both in G4 and new G5s even], bad memory, etc.

A cheap PC mobo is less than $100. A high end one can be had for $150 or more. Nevertheless, point being you still have a choice to change.

The only machine on the market today that meets that spec is a Mac

Again incorrect.

Companies like Dell and especially HP, have preconfigured machines that are used for turnkey solutions for companies like Avid, Discreet, Maya, etc. Plus better customer and warranty service to boot.



Point being you can spend $2500-$4000 on a G4/G5 FCP combo and do straight cut DV.
You can do the same on an $1000 Dell and $600 Premiere, plus surf the web, buy After FX, get an new hard drive and still come out cheaper. But this cheaper may not be enough for you.

So we are back again to the line

Set the budget, etc, etc....

[mercyboy]

just as a sidebar to this even-lengthing sidebar of a topic: for those of you who do use Macs and who have never purchased a third-party processor upgrade card, be thankful. they do not actually function like original equipment in how they interface with the OS, and as the OS is upgraded, you are likely to find less and less "native" features available to you. sure, firmware updates are supposed to take care of that, but the truth is that the thirdparty vendors are usually too busy with their new upgrade cards to support the old ones. i'd never ever never ever never upgrade the board or the like on a mac (or my PCs either, for that matter)...better to save the dough and buy a new machine later on. also, the iMacs and eMacs are VERY BAD choices for any professional work. you HAVE to have a tower with available PCI slots if you want the machine to last long enough to earn you some profits on your work. mine are all full, plus i actually have to swap out cards for some specific high-intensity jobs. yes, firewire 800/400 and USB2 are groovy for certain things, but i like to stick with PCI Raid cards, graphics boards, and firewire buses. the only one that's a bit of a waste is the PCI slot being filled by an additional fan. (which reminds me to say that I practially power my entire apartment off the internal power supplies and have never had a problem other than once blowing one on my Quadra 840av back in the stone ages--and that was after years of service. so i've never heard of anybody having power problems with a Mac, nor with quality PCs...but the cheapo PCs do often have cheapo power supplies and companies like emachines are notorious for that sort of stuff.)

ps: i was just kidding about modeling your personal computing environment after the Army! Ha. I mean, let's keep it real. If you're working on your own, you listen and learn, try and buy, fool around with everything, and repeat the process for the rest of your life.

[christoph]

The US Army switched to Macs for security concerns, as stated.

Please reread. You are incomplete in your interpretation. He is stating that if it good enough for the military it is good enough for us regular people. I argue back that if it is not good enough for mission critical [render farms are mission critical] work for the most important Apple lover of all time, it ain't perfect.

i guess this is still refering to the pixar render farm.. if so, you might be interested in the fact that the third fastest supercomputer of the world is a mac g5 cluster... and it was dead cheap too

http://computing.vt.edu/research_computing/terascale
http://www.bayarea.net/~kins/AboutMe/wh ... sters.html

i wouldn't be very surpriced if pixar changes it's render farm very soon ;)

but you are right, it ain't perfect and there's nothing you can't do with pc's as well (well, except maybe for building the third fastest supercomputer for 5 million USD :)

++ christoph ++

[crimsonson]

I read about the Virginia Tech Supercomputer over the summer when Apple sent letters out to the first bunch of people who ordered DP 2GHz G5.
Something like "Because of our commitments to education..."

:roll:

Right....

The difference was making the list for this year [the year the new G5s are released] or next year [a year after teh G5s are released].
Nevertheless, more power to Apple.

I think the real impressive about teh VT Supercomputer is not the performace but the price - thus the price perfromance ratio.

Just unheard of.


I am waiting to get a new G5 for our online FCP system soon [Aja Io].
Pretty happy with it. It should really shine with the G5.

[DriveIn]

....for those of you who do use Macs and who have never purchased a third-party processor upgrade card, be thankful. they do not actually function like original equipment in how they interface with the OS.....

Neither did many of the PC upgrade processors. :? I have both Win and Mac around here. Spend hours on a not fast enough modem updating the WinXP to stay ahead of all the potential problems, the mac recieved it's last necessary upgrade many months ago and is still doing fine. Helpful link for some. http://www.driverdisks.com/ for those that have trouble finding what they need when rebuilding windows driven hardware. All you need to do is email and ask if the driver you seek is included on the appropriate disk.

[Pedro]

But one thing I'm still confused about: the eMac G4 is a 1.0 GHz chip. For the same price can't I get a 2.6 GHz pentium or AMD chip? And isn't processor speed really important in something like video editing? I guess the real question is: is a 1.0 GHz G4 chip with 512 M Ram enough for 'comfortable' video editing?

You cannot compare directly the pocessor clock of IBM-based computers and MACs. Roughly, you could calculate, that a MAC processor *2...3 equals with a Pentium/AMD. The technology is different, I think MAC uses RISC processors (up to G4 made by Motorola), with a reduced command set, while Pentium has a very big command set. To search in that huge command list for every operation needs more processing speed than to repeat the simplier commands out of a smaller list of a RISC processor. This is the way, the book "Hallo iMac" is describing the difference.

Video editing works fine even on out-dated older Macs. On my G4/800MHz it is much faster than I am able to perform actions. What requires processing power, is the encoding process, after finishing the editing. And rendering of transitions you apply to a video is also time time intensive with very slow machines. Here the faster Macs outperform the slower ones. But if you start encoding at night and go to bed, you save money for a G5.

Pedro

[seekaee]

You cannot compare directly the pocessor clock of IBM-based computers and MACs.

Yeah, but thease days, the mac IS an IBM-based computer