Widescreen / Lenses / Best S8mm Camera / Filming Question

[Carrillo]

Hello everyone, i hope you dont mind my english knowledge, i´m from Spain and i have a couple of questions concerning the Super 8mm Format , perhaps some of you can help me or if the questions are too stupid or boring, a simple "yes" or "no" would be fine

In the last 2 weeks i´ve read alot of things about the super 8mm cameras, its pros/contras but some informations seem to be either contradictorily or not quit comprehensible or even understandable.

E.g.
I want to shoot a short-feature, mostly with snow-landscape & forests in daylight + some interior shots. Including some people and fast-paced movement.
Now, after reading about many cameras my choice is either a:

Nizo 6080 (this is my first choice at the moment)
Canon 1014XL
Beaulieu 4008 ZM II

Is there a better camera out there (S8mm) than these 3 ? Which one would you recommened? Which one is the easiest and most-user friendly (incl. Quality, i dont want to trade quality for some user gimmicks) to use?
Is there a different camera you would recommend?
Furthermore, i want to buy 1-2 secondary cameras for different angle shots, they dont have to be in the same quality range as these 3 but should deliver at least a comparable output. I was told so many different cameras with so much Pros/contras that i now dont know what the best would be. Some say Sankyo 40XL , some Canon 512 etc.
What would you use ? (when mixing with one of the 3 mentioned).

Now the lenses, i´m really interested in buying a x1.75 anamorphic lens so I'd get a 2.35:1 aspect ratio or a x2 lens (i heard its easier to aquire) for 2.66:1. My Question is, is one of the 3 mentioned cameras able to use a lens like that ? Could you tell me which lenses are good with with cameras?

Then i read about the light meter , is there a light meter you would recommend ?

Are there many companies around that are able to convert 2.35:1 S8mm to DigiBeta-Sp ? (i heard this is one of the best options for S8mm in order to edit later on) I would like to have the film digital-scaned (? - i dont know the english word for it) instead of some of the more "home based" things like filimg with a camcorder and all that stuff.

Is there something to keep in mind when shooting with a lens like that?

Next point is the sound, i thought about recording the sound with a seperate dat-recorder and mix it later on into the film with additionell effects. Is there a better way? Is a crystal-sync motor so much better for the camera to run stable? Is it necessary for a camera like nizo 6080?

What kind of lighting would you recommend ?

Thanks alot for your time.
bye
Carrillo

[Nigel]

I wouldn't buy the Nizo. They are wonderful cameras whilst they are running. When they break they are very hard to repair. I would go with the Beaulieu. Good Luck

[Pedro]

Hi Carillo!

Many questions, I will try to give you some ideas.

1. camera choice(es)
When shooting a feature, you should first consider the framerate. If you want the prof. 24 or 25 fps, you´ll have to exclude a lot of available cameras, that only offer 18 fps. I would highly recommend 24 fps, the film looks much smoother and sharper afterwards.
Second, the way of live sound synchronisation. When using MD, you just have a crystal referenced recording and playback speed, so there are no pproblems concerning the sound. But the cameras are not adjusted so absolutly accurately, that you can take 24 fps as really 24.000 000 fps as neccessary for synchronization. Here only a crystal driven camera will help. Alternatively, you can still use the pulse synchronization method, which works with any camera that has a flash socket: you record an additional sync track to the MD or tape, that contains one beep sound for every frame the camera has forewarded. Afterwards, you can use this as a reference for the extend and speed of your sound in relation to the film scene or for direct speed control of the film or sound, using synchronizing equipment.
The next point to consider is the lens quality and the secure camera operation, neccessary for a serious feature production. The best and outstanding lenses for film shooting, as well as S8 and 16 mm, are from Angenieux. Canon is good as well, but Angenieux has a centered multi-bladed iris, garanting the correct depth of field behaviour, as well as reflex sensitivity, contrast and sharpness. Nizo lenses are notable less sharp.
So, when talking about Angenieux lenses, there is only Beaulieu as a camera body, one of the few, that allowes the user to select and change the lens. If you can get the 1:1,2/6-80 mm or 1:1,2/6-90 zoom, you have the very best ever produced for S8. The more actual 1:1,4/6-90 is good as well. The older Angenieux ones with 1:1,9 as sold with the 4008ZMII body are also very good and more easy to adapt to anamorphotic lenses.
Concernin the camera, the 4008 body is a very cool tool in "weapon" design, with a very large and bright viewfinder, detachable full ground glass. It only has no flash socket for sound sync, nor a crystal. It is also rather noisy, what may cause problems with live sound recording. If you decide to use one of those, you must have it converted to crystal or have attached an additional flash contact. Both is possible, f.e. at Bavaria cine home in Munich. Same problem with the 5008 bodys, the sound version of the 4008. Easyer it is with the 6008/7008/9008 bodies. They all have flash sockets for pulse sync and the "pro" versions have a slot for a crystal module, the user can attach by himself. The older 6008 bodies go for very cheap now (less than €1000), sometimes just with lenses. When beeing 6008, it should at least be a "MD" version, if not, it has no ground glass focussing. Ground glass focussing is the only way that enables you to set the focus accuratly with S8. Split image does not work under all conditions. When buying a 6008, don´t get one with a Schneider lens or buy a Angenieux lens additionally. Note that any lens you attach to any camera body must be adjusted to the individual body. You cannot interchange the bodies afterwards. The seller of lens + body must do the adjusment job.
The Beaulieu cameras are the ones with the best low light abilities, as they don´t use a beam splitting prism for the viewfinder. The complete amout of light coming from the lens beats right onto the film surface. Other cameras give away about 50% of the light and compensate that with longer shutter times (XL shutters). That shutters produce scenes which are less sharper and show a significant shutter effect when trying to move the camera during shooting.

2. scene lighing for indoor.
To start with, use halogen lamps with fans, designed for film shooting. Cheap at second hand. One main light with 2000 W, one add. light with 1000 W and one effect light with 600 W. Sometimes a camera light with 300 W helps to wipe away any shadows in faces.

3. editing
I know that most people recommend computer editing and sound syncing. I agree that this is certainly the easyest way. You only should consider not to go a way without return. That means, that you may leave the medium film and go over to video, without the possibility to show your edited FILM on a big screen with a good projector. Only this way of reproduction can show the full range of resolution, contrast and color that is inside the film. Any video system offers significantly less resolution, color and contrast. So the editing process should consider, that after editing on PC, a master cut of the original footage is already possible. This can be realized in the most easy way when digitalizing the original footage with a superimposed frame number for each frame. This service f.e. is offered by Bavaria cine home in Munich. Afterwards, you can cut your original film according to the frame numbers in the video and splice it together in the same order. Now it can be projected, together with sound from CD or striped and projected with magnetic sound. There are several possibilities to synchronize a projector with a CD. And with CS lens in front of the projector, the show will be just stunning!

Good luck!
Pedro

[jukkasil]

Now the lenses, i´m really interested in buying a x1.75 anamorphic lens so I'd get a 2.35:1 aspect ratio or a x2 lens (i heard its easier to aquire) for 2.66:1. My Question is, is one of the 3 mentioned cameras able to use a lens like that ? Could you tell me which lenses are good with with cameras?

Are there many companies around that are able to convert 2.35:1 S8mm to DigiBeta-Sp ? (i heard this is one of the best options for S8mm in order to edit later on) I would like to have the film digital-scaned (? - i dont know the english word for it) instead of some of the more "home based" things like filimg with a camcorder and all that stuff.

Carrillo

I'm just testing possibilities to start shooting anamorphic stuff with one of my super 8 cameras (I have 15 different ones). I bought one 2x AM lens from ebay and I'm just designing the support for it to my Leicina super Rt camera (cause it has 25 and 54 speeds and very suitable lens and camera body for this kind of modifications).

If you use 2x lens, you'll get 2.66:1 aspect ratio (Cinemascope), not 2.35:1.

Check these links for more information of shooting Anamorphic with super 8:

http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavende ... rphic.html

http://www.super8mm.org/arsenal.html


I already made one very primitive test with my mini-dv camera (Sony PC-100). I used tripod holding the Am-lens in the front of videocamera, here are the result I get:

http://www.sorb-i-tol.com/mycinemascopetest.html

Don't care about image quality, it has been shot with mini dv and we had very ugly weather during my test shooting (cold and snow). I don't want to burn any super 8 film to these kind of tests.


You asked:

"Are there many companies around that are able to convert 2.35:1 S8mm to DigiBeta-Sp ?"

I'm not sure about others, but I can offer you super 8 anamorphic to DV (mini dv) transfer at price 3 Euro/transfered minute.

If you have for example 10 minute of AM material you want to transfer, so total prices is 10 min. x 3 Euro/minute = 30 Euro.

I can put the both versions in the same mini dv cassette, unscaled and scaled versions of material.

Here is one mpg-file (over 57 Mbytes) of example of my transfer quality:

http://www.sorb-i-tol.com/wp3transferservice.mpg

About good cameras I'd recommend you Bauer's A512/508, Royal 10, S 709/715XL, Canon Scoopic DS8, Leicina Super RT and Special, Nikon R10/R8 in addition to these Beualieu/Nizo-ones.

More mpg-videoexamples you can find from my transfer web-site (look my signature).

[Carillo]

Thanks alot for all your time & comments!

I changed my view on the Nizo but still not sure with the Baulieu 4008 ZM II because of the sound syncro and the other side this is the one that is able to use the Angenieux lenses. Btw. Does anyone know where i might get a x1.75 lens ? I know the x2 ist easier to obtain but i have the choice i´d go with the x1.75.

I thought about upgrading the camera with a crystal sync motor but after looking around i realised that this would cost me much more than the camera itself. Of course, filming is not cheap in general but i have a budget in mind that i dont want to explode into another dimension

Could you tell me how reliable the pulse synchronization method is? Is it possible to achieve near or even crystal sync results ? Do i have to keep in mind something when using that method ? Btw. Approx. how much would it be to additionally add the flack socket ?

So, from all the choices, there´s no way of using a x1.75 lens and having at least the flash socket ? (beeing in the said camera price area)

The 6008 and up Models are pretty expensive over here, i´d love to get one of these but then again i´m not far away from 16mm money-wise

When talking about the lens quality and camera in general, i looked all over the net for some small videos to view of the Beaulieu but was not able to find some, are there some videos you know of ?

Concering with the light, i had about the same in mind, i´ll go with that.

As far as editing and conveting goes, i have a question about the Mini-DV. i I had DigiBeta in mind because i thought that with the mini-dv you would lose the resolution and contrast that super8mm offers. The example transfers of the mini-dv looks really good , i´m wondering if there is a big or at least a real noticeable difference between a digitalscan on digibeta from super8mm.
Are there some comparisions online ?


Thanks!

[focusgroup]

Pedro

I have always found your comments to be extremely insightful and on point. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this board!

[Basstruc]

Hi Carillo,
What filmstock do you expect to use ?
If negative stock, no problems with telecine, but with reversible, it's far more complicated. Kodachrome expectually. Kodachrome is a fantastic filmstock, it's the sharpest cine filmstock ever. And super8 needs sharpeness. I know many here that would stop super8 if kodachrome would not be made any more. Some says that it has a amateur look, but god no ! It has been heavely used by pro-photographers & still does. Funny to notice that kodachrome has an amateur reputation in cine, & professional reputation in still photography.
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/produ ... 7268.shtml

As you might notice on characteristic curves, it has a huge contrast & a huge density in blacks. A telecine can't handle both low & high key of the kodachrome. Nothing is more frustrating than getting not enough informations on telecine from rushs. I would advise you to cut this contrast while shooting using filters. Low contrast filters or Black promist filters ( prefered )should work fine. If you got a little bucks ( more than a little in fact ), I would advise you to do a test roll using with & without those. Do not forget to get your biggest attention on lightening, using a manual spot meter.
Matt

[Carillo]

Hi Basstruc!
Yes, my plan was to use Kodachrome reversible because the negative stock costs nearly twice as much over here + the costs of developing it.
I´m not sure now, is the negative stock with a telecine transfer visibly better and more recommened when taken the price into account or will filters fix this problem on Kodachrome so it will be on par ?

I will shoot a test roll with all kind of variations as soon as i have an anamorphic lens for the Bealieu4008ZM2

Shooting film is really really complicated, i´ve read so much over the last few weeks and still am a bit confused.