Poor quality transfer - what's your expert verdict?

[Patrick]

Ive just had some super 8 footage transferred onto video tape for the first time. Theres this lady who runs a local business and offers a video transfer service really, really, cheaply. I was disapointed with the results - maybe my fault for choosing someone who offers such cheap rates - I admit i was a bit suspicious beforehand.

The thing is, I would like to know what sort of equipment she is using. If I could describe the 'symptons' of my transferred footage - maybe the people among you with vast experience with video transfer would be able to identify this type of equipment.

I have spoken to her on the phone and she said that the apparatus she is using is made by Sony and sort of looks like a projector complete with feed spool except that it has a screen built into it. The frames are scanned electronically, according to her which is I think is a similar principle as used by a Rank. This doesnt sound right because the majority of shots - there is a definite drop in quality. I know that when transferring film to video, you have to expect a certain drop in quality and an increase in contrast but I dont think that this level of quality was acceptable to my standards. Strangely, there were a few shots that turned out reasonably good - a macro close up of a spider perched on a flower, and time lapse of clouds. The rest of the shots though - looked a bit crumby. I remember her saying though that if she transfers footage that has been shot at 24 fps - she gets flicker - thats probably a big clue for you all.

I also noticed strange colours in some of the shots that arent in the original film footage. For example, some shots look a little yellowish or sepia toned. There are also about two times in the early part of the footage where you see a little shaking of the image for about a second. The whole image on the screen sways very slightly from side to side(briefly though.)

Another annoying thing is sometimes when there is a splice, the image goes out of focus. I dont know if this is due to the thickness of the splices or not. Though at one point, the image went out of focus just before the splice but not at the actual point of the splice. The most unnacceptable thing was that the very beginning of the footage is out of focus. Thats right, as soon as you start playing the tape, the first thing you see is an out of focus image and then it snaps into focus! I dont think i call that a quality transfer. That doesnt make sense either because this first shot has been spliced onto a white film leader by Kodak during processing (as you know an expert job) so there is no going out of focus when this particular section goes through my projector.

One segment of footage consists of time lapse of shadows (one frame every minute) sweeping over the ground and trees in the woods. With the camera, I exposed for the brightest parts of the scene and let the shadows fall to deep black. This footage looks so good when projected on film. Yet transferred onto video tape, the 'correctly exposed' areas are actually more than a little overexposed, spoiling the whole look of this segment.

There is another time lapse section of a tram arriving and people getting off. The lighting was overcast and turned out beautiful on film. I know that sometimes when shooting Kodachrome on sunny days, the colours can look a bit too rich and unrealistic / over the top. The colours on this overcast day turned out subtle and so very realistic and the lighting was all uniform and diffused and I got the exposure absolutely spot on - magical. Thats how it looks on film. Transferred onto video tape, the whole impact of this shot is lost. It actualy looks like it was taken on a sunny day - eg. contrasty. And those nice subtle colours have lost their subtelness. Though oddly, there are other overcast shots that still look overcast when transferred.

Sorry for going on for so long but I thought that it was necessary to tell you all the symptons in detail in order to find out from you how my precious footage was transferred. After seeing this transer, Im actualy put off putting films onto video tape! Or am I expecting too much - I know that the images can never look as good as the original film. Its my first transfer so its hard to compare to anything else.

[S8 Booster]

Sorry that you got such bad results with the transfer. Within the transfer business you may get all sorts of results but yours seem to be at the low end in terms of quality.

Without dealing too much with your questions right now, I guess other will comment on that later, I add these links for you to shw how good the transfer might be.

http://www.moviestuff.tv/8mm_telecine.html
http://www.moviestuff.tv/clip001.mpg (video clip)

Here is another link that you can check out.
http://www.pro8mm.com/reelFr.htm (video clip)
At the end of that film you will see samples of 8mm movie transferred to video.

regards

[jessh]

sounds to me like it is a simple filmchain setup using a rear projection screen, probably with just a standard video camera hooked up. I could of course be wrong, but it would help explain the low quality results, more than even the equipment the amount of time and care used in the transfer process probably caused a lot of your problems. The inability to do 24fps without flicker is what you get when using a standard projector instead of the 5 bladed telecine projector necesary to do 24fps transfers.

~Jess

[wahiba]

In the UK the consumer magazine Which tried commercial transfers and were not happy with the results. They did it themselves, camera besides the projector and image onto a screen and reckoned their efforts were better.

Evidently many of the 'commercial' offers are basically using this process. usually with the kit set up. The biggest problem with the side by side method is setting it up as the camera tends to be on the same side of the projector as the projector controls, and if like mine they are on the right it can be awkward. The camcorder is not so bad as I record directly onto the computer rather than the camcorder tape.

Proffesional transfers use a direct scanning process. There is one of these machine for sale on ebay for 10000 GBP. MovieStuff gets a clear picture by basically videoing a magnified projector gate, which with a modern digital camcorder obviously produces excellent results, clear picture and large number of pixels. But it needs a modified projector and a reasonable optical set up.

Personally as an amateur for my own enjoyment I do it with the camcorder beside the projector. There are better methods, but with the caveat that you only get what you pay for. My efforts, while not of a high quality, can be seen on my website listed below. I video at 320 x 160 at 25 fps and then edit it from there. This is with an Hi-8 camcorder taht fortunately has a fairly slow shutter speed so I have no real flicker problems.

[absegame]

sounds to me like it is a simple filmchain setup using a rear projection screen, probably with just a standard video camera hooked up. I could of course be wrong, but it would help explain the low quality results, more than even the equipment the amount of time and care used in the transfer process probably caused a lot of your problems. The inability to do 24fps without flicker is what you get when using a standard projector instead of the 5 bladed telecine projector necesary to do 24fps transfers.

~Jess

JESS: I LIVE IN THE DFW AREA. WHERE IS A GOOD TELECINE TRANSFER LAB? Thanks,

Bill Miller (absegame) bmiller@dfwairport.com
972-574-8187

[jessh]

JESS: I LIVE IN THE DFW AREA. WHERE IS A GOOD TELECINE TRANSFER LAB? Thanks,

if you want cheap try MovieStuff in Houston http://www.moviestuff.tv/transfers.html
if you want to spend a lot more for a little better quality than try super8sound, http://www.pro8mm.com

~Jess

[David M. Leugers]

Patrick

I think the lady who did your transfer is full of it, if you know what I mean. Sony did make a high end 8mm telecine machine that cost $10,000 twenty years ago. Only a handful of these were made and it gave excellent results especially for 24fps. Broadsky and Treadway near Boston use this machine and you've probably seen footage transferred by them if you watch PBS. A true telecine projector with 5 bladed shutter can give excellent results and can also give rather poor results. Depends on the setup and care given during the transfer. Moviestuff's transfer devices are great. I'd recommend buying one or getting your film transferred on one of them. If you have sound film shot at 24fps I can fix you up. I can either transfer the film for you or modify your Elmo projector with a 5 bladed shutter. Let me know if I can help. Good luck and keep filming.

[MovieStuff]

Ive just had some super 8 footage transferred onto video tape for the first time.

I was disapointed with the results

I have spoken to her on the phone and she said that the apparatus she is using is made by Sony and sort of looks like a projector complete with feed spool except that it has a screen built into it. The frames are scanned electronically, according to her which is I think is a similar principle as used by a Rank.

Nothing like the Rank at all.

I'm sure she's using one of the old, mid- 1980's Elmo TRV units which are a genuine piece of crappola. The have a small, 240 line single chip CCD which, when it first came out, was terrific compared to the tube pick ups available at the time and the only resolution you had to meet was for VHS. But by, todays standards, a common single chip security camera has better resolution and color that that Elmo cam. Frankly, I think it's criminal for transfer houses using Goko (glocoma-vision) and Elmo transfer units to advertise "state of the art" without mentioning that it was "state of the art" for the 1980's!

Are you in the states, Patrick? If so, why don't you send me a 50 foot roll and I'll do you a free test so you can see what a decent transfer can look like on video. An Elmo transfer is like having a meal at McDonald's. You should use it to judge what good hamburgers really taste like.

Just fill out this form and mail it in with your film:

http://www.moviestuff.tv/form.html

For more information about transfers, please see:

http://www.moviestuff.tv/transfers.html

Roger

[Patrick]

Thanks for both of your offers, David and Roger. However, I live in Australia! I did get that same footage transferred at another local place and they did a better quality job overall. Although, I am not happy that originally, I thought that, previously this was going to be for free (as a sample) but after the transfer I was charged $54. I guss my footage was a little long though - over 100ft of film.

Oh, I forgot to mention - another thing about that lower quality transfer that I had done - all of the shots in that footage (which were mostly time lapse) - were executed on a tripod. So the horizon was dead level. Yet alot of these shots (when transferred to video) the horizon was tilted considerably - almost 20 to 30 degrees! Its almost laughable, isnt it?

[jukkasil]

You have PAL-standard in Australia?

Try to find a guy, who own Workprinter (have you Roger sold one to Australia?), that could be the best way for getting good quality in very cheap price I think.

I can also offer Workprinter-transfer service (PAL-standard), but I live in Finland, so long way from Australia!

Anyway I can offer you basic transfer at price 2 Euro/minute (0.9 x 2 = 1.8USD/minute).

So if you're interested of my service, here are couple examples and my contact address:

http://www.sorb-i-tol.com/lapset.mpg

http://www.sorb-i-tol.com/kesa2002.mpg

Shot during 2002 by myself (with Bauer S 709XL camera). That "kesa2002"-one contains also time lapse shooting.


Jukka Sillanpaa
PL 2
21570 Sauvo
Finland

email. jukka@sorb-i-tol.com

[MovieStuff]

Thanks for both of your offers, David and Roger. However, I live in Australia!

Hi, Patrick!

Here are the guys I sold a WorkPrinter to:

Bruce Josephs
Principal
DVD Infinity
+61 2 8903 2841 office
+61 4 1201 6568 mobile
+61 2 9428 2125 fax
http://www.dvdinfinity.com.au

They say it works just great for them but I have not seen any of their footage. Therefore, I have no way of knowing about their set up, alignment, camera type, etc, or even if their footage really looks any better (it should!). There are so many things that can make a difference in the overall quality of the transfer but they do have the only WorkPrinter in Australia!

Roger

[DVDInfinity]

Patrick,

If you are in Sydney, we are happy to show you our transfer quality. It is better than most of the old news reels were transferred for television.

At $54 I expect what she meant by Sony was a cheap sony video camera and a projector.

Please call me.

Bruce Josephs
DVD Infinity
(02) 8903 2841