NTSC to PAL or 25fps to 24fps... What's the best way?

[sunrise]

I know this topic has been discussed on various occasions before, but somehow it made me even more confused everytime. And the results I am getting does not seem to be improved by the ways I try.

The current problem is this: A music video I've made about a year ago (to be watched here) is now going to be released on DVD on the Philipeneans. I have made the film in PAL, and they want it on NTSC.

Every converter I've tried so far just seem to drop frames. Thus creating a jerky movement.

How do I compensate for this? I do not want to slow down or speed up the video, as this is a music video and images fits the music.


I impose this question as it is also relevant in the "I've filmed 24fps, but scan to video at 25fps"-issue.

Is there a way to make frame blending or how do you come about this problem? How do you avoid the jerky movements without changing the speed of your film?


Oh, I use windows, premiere, EZDV, TMPGEnc.


Cheers,
sunrise

[mattias]

you need a professional conversion. these hardware boxes they use do a great job in creating the extra frames through motion estimation and interpolation. the only software i know of that does it properly is reelsmart twixtor, which probably is too expensive for you, especially if this is a one time thing...

/matt

[sunrise]

Hey Mattias,

do you think an Avid DS will do the job?

I did try to correct some framerate with an on-liner once on a DS, but he didn't seem to get it right.

Cheers,
sunrise

[nahie]

How do I compensate for this? I do not want to slow down or speed up the video, as this is a music video and images fits the music.

Is there a way to make frame blending or how do you come about this problem? How do you avoid the jerky movements without changing the speed of your film?

Oh, I use windows, premiere, EZDV, TMPGEnc.

There are basically two ways to go to/from NTSC/PAL (or film). You can speed up/slow down the movie (BOTH audio and video) or interpolate frames (add/subtract or blend) and leave the audio as is. The best (and cheapest) way for PAL to NTSC is to slow Pal 25fps down to 24fps and do film pulldown.

I know I was going to tell you how to do this but I've been really busy at work. Basically, get AVIsynth (http://www.videotools.net) and use a script like this for the video:

AVISource("H:\movie.avi")
BilinearResize(720,480)
AssumeFrameBased
AssumeFPS(23.970)
SeparateFields
SelectEvery(8, 0,1, 2,3,2, 5,4, 7,6,7)
Weave
AssumeFPS(29.976)

That's pretty basic but you get the idea. Scripts for AVIsynth are just notepad files renamed .avs instead of .txt.

If you use the above script, you will also have to resample your audio and slow it down, then adjust the pitch.

-Nahie

[sunrise]

Hey Nahie,

Avisynth comes with windows GUI, doesn't it?

Slowing down or speeding footage is not really an option for me, since this is a music video, although I know it would make the best pictures.

But a 4 percent speeding up of music is too much, I think.

I must look into interpolating instead, I think.

Cheers,
sunrise

[mattias]

do you think an Avid DS will do the job?

no. i'm not sure what it is eactly but it's an editing system, right? you need a proprietary pal to ntsc convertor. just have a post house equipped with one do the conversion for you. it's done in real time so it can't be that expensive for just a music video...

/matt

[nahie]

Avisynth comes with windows GUI, doesn't it?

No, AVIsynth is a seperate program.

Slowing down or speeding footage is not really an option for me, since this is a music video, although I know it would make the best pictures.

I don't understand why not. You slow down the video and the audio at the same time, so there is no distortion. I do this to music videos all the time. The audio does not get out of sync.

But a 4 percent speeding up of music is too much, I think.

That is why you also change the pitch of the audio. Honestly, you won't notice. This is the method hollywood uses to transfer all movies from film to PAL DVD and PAL TV. They just speed up the 24fps to 25 fps and speed up the audio, then (if they know what they're doing) they shift the pitch. That is why all PAL movies are shorter than the NTSC ones, even if they have the exact same cuts.

-Nahie

[sunrise]

no. i'm not sure what it is eactly but it's an editing system, right

It's a non-linear postproduction system. They have one at the danish film workshop. That's where we did the postproduction and effects for the video.

sunrise

[mattias]

That is why you also change the pitch of the audio. Honestly, you won't notice. This is the method hollywood uses to transfer all movies from film to PAL DVD and PAL TV.

well, we all know this obviously. the issue is whether you want to do it to a *music video*. i'd say go for it, but i totally understand if sunrise doesn't agree. if you've already heard the music on cd you *will* notice the slowdown. it works in movies mainly because you have nothing ot compare it with...

It's a non-linear postproduction system

cool, i've only used media composer and the various expresses. might have the conversion box if it's an online system i guess...

/matt

[Nigel]

Check this out--It may help.

http://www.aaton.com/about/preferences/24fps.php

Good Luck

[moviesko]

How about Canopus Procoder, there is free demo download on their site.
It has has got high mark in many reviews, but I have not tried it for PAL/NTSC conversion.

[sunrise]

I've tried twixtor along with Fields kit for AE. It does have some nice results but cuts seem to be a great problem.

I've tried cutting the video into edits in Premiere and inporting the project into AE, but cuts still seem to interpolate.

Any ideas of how to do this without having to apply the effect on each edit, and render the approx 150 edits one by one?

Did that make sense?

Does anyone want me to create a guide for further reference?

Cheers
sunrise

[sunrise]

So, now I've tried Twixtor, and must say that I am not happy with the results.

Frame blending and interpolation is fine for steady shots without much movements.

Pans, rapid movement or edits makes weird results. And I seem to have a lot of those.

I must try to find a cheap post house..

Cheers,
sunrise

[mattias]

twixtor shouldn't have any problems with fast pans and action, even though it doesn't like overlapping movement. and i seem to remember that edits shouldn't be a problem either. are you sure you've set it up correctly?

/matt

[sunrise]

I have followed these online tutorials:

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_t ... 5676129550

http://www.revisionfx.com/freezone/FPSfaq/FSPFAQ.htm

http://www.revisionfx.com/generalfaqsNTSCtoPAL.htm

Did the whole thing with using fields kit at 50fps to deinterlace. have tried on both full video and single shot.

I use motion vectors BTW, at least on pans they yield best results.

You can WATCH THIS TEST

sunrise