Had an idea about a new scanner

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kodachromearchive
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Re: Had an idea about a new scanner

Post by kodachromearchive »

MovieStuff wrote:I've been long thinking about a new form of WorkPrinter that would be a sort of table top model capable of handling only the 50 foot reels. It wouldn't be fast but it would have a small camera built in that imaged directly off the film. Now, while cheap color cameras don't have terrific color or very good resolution, black and white cameras usually have superior resolution and an extended grey scale, compared to color cameras of the same calibre.

What I propose is a WorkPrinter with a built in black and white camera and RGB color wheel to break the image into color separations. Three black and white video frames would be taken of each film frame; one for red, one for green and one for blue. Special software would allow a preview of playback in black and white of just one of the separations, just to check motion. The frames would be combined into a color image when the file is rendered out with the appropriate speed change.

Now, here's the really cool part: Since the images haven't been combined into a final AVI, the color could be controlled with slider bars as red, blue and green adjustments. A preview window would show the final color for one frame and markers would let you make color and density adjustments on a cut by cut basis, frame accurate.

So the idea is that you would make the initial "scan" of the film and then work out all your color and density adjustments and then render. Because the camera is imaging directly off the film, and in black and white separations, the image should be reallllly sharp and because you are working with color components, the contrast and color fidelity should be outstanding.

At least in theory....

I see the unit looking a lot like the little tape recorders in the old Mission Impossible show. It would take about an hour per 50 foot reel to scan but the results should be pretty nifty.

Roger
I'm still (sadly) outsourcing our films, primarily because a consumer 8mm/super 8 film scanner still doesn't exist.

While your new musing sounds like a mechanical Foveon (very appealing in light of the cost of those 3CCD cameras) - it probably would still lack the ICE,ROC,GEM features now standard with any 35mm film scanner, and the size would likely consume excessive workspace.

If you can ever witness what Applied Science Fiction's "ROC" feature can do for faded film - you're in for a treat. It's fully automatic and saves lots of editor time.

http://www.asf.com/products/roc/filmROC.shtml

While we're dreaming...how about a Nikon 8mm scanner with a "drop in" loading capability.
paulcotto
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Post by paulcotto »

Reminds me of the DigiView from NewTek, the “video toaster” folks on the Amiga computer (I still have 2). The software is already written, perhaps you could license it from them? There were many home grown versions on the amiga back in the day. Perhaps the C source could be ported... High res B&W cameras make nice smooth gradients.

Good thinking!

Back to work on my perforator. Any day now :D

Regards,
Paul Cotto
Don't worry about equipment so much and make your movie!
calgodot
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Post by calgodot »

I think it sounds cool. Perfect for those of us who live in tiny cramped LA apartments. What sort of footprint would this device have - you mentioned the recorders in MI: so about 6x10x2" or so? Would you put the reels into a little compartment and close it (less dust)?

I wouldn't mind waiting an hour for a 50' roll - I already sit here an entire day scanning stills sometimes. Wouldn't be much different. Hell, if you've already waited three friggin weeks plus for K40 to come back from the lab, what's another 60 minutes?

Yeah, if I could put it on my desk, or next to my scanner, it'd be perfect.
"I'm the master of low expectations. I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things."—George W. Bush, June 4, 2003
Petteri
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Post by Petteri »

Damn Roger,

I haven't tought anything else, since yesterday ;-) After thinking a while it sounds even better than yesterday... I think you should go for it and very soon!

Petteri ;-)
marc
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Post by marc »

Roger,
Can this turn black and white film into color? And if so, how will it look?
christoph
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Post by christoph »

marc wrote: Can this turn black and white film into color? And if so, how will it look?
it can't.. it will still look b/w (surprising, uh? ;)

reminds me of a great calvin and hobbes strip about b/w photography.. have to check if i can find it somewhere
++ christoph ++
mathis
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Post by mathis »

Yes, I also think that´s a great idea. I would be definitly interested in. Most appealing is the compact size, next to the possible colour manipulation possibilities.
I also like the idea someone mentioned with the parallel dv and hires-tiffs.
danpuddick
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Post by danpuddick »

any idea on a possible price... I'm sure it's a long way off yet... I think it has the great benefit of not requiring a DV cam... they're such a big investment for a poor student like me
keep on truckin'
daniel
Petteri
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Post by Petteri »

Roger have you spend more time with this idea? Do you have the demo version ready for me ;-)

Petteri
nonkjo
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Post by nonkjo »

New around these boards and the idea of a film scanner is an idea I've been kicking around for some time now...

Why couldn't you just canibalize parts from, say, a super8 telecine...remove the mechanicals and put them in a custom box. take out the old motor and install a stepper unit. Use an IR light through the perfrorations to help with registration...
Canibalize the camera components out of a 35mm still film scanner off of ebay...(I mean, it's already used for scanning high res film anyway right?)...use the lamp also and machine your own gate for the frame...

reuse the reels from the telecine and devise some sort of tensioner..

i don't know...Until i found this place, i thought i was the only onewho thought about things like this.

BTW, right now, the best image format to save in is .png for uncompressed No need to convert to .avi as an intermediate format because most modern nle's will import the image sequence anyway. The best thing to focus on as far as a scanner goes IMHO is digital acquisition of each individual frame...Shoot a clean scene and color correct in something like Discreet Combustion.

great ideas guys...
I'm gonna draw a block diagram of what i'm talking about...a lot of the finer mechanical parts can be canibalized. The real challenge would be programming so you can automate the process and control your device...and I know nothing about programming...

well, cheers and i'm glad to be here,

James Green
jean
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Post by jean »

We've had a very interesting discussion about this, just do a search here for all the detailed optinions. The concept has it's advantages - best quality - but also very real problems, like the limited mtbf of film scanners.

Nonetheles, there are many ways to solve this, it's time that someone starts building it. I'm afraid that I'm to lazy and have to little money to do it, but the idea is still appealing to me.
have fun!
jhoneycutt
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Sign me up!

Post by jhoneycutt »

MovieStuff wrote:
regular8mm wrote:But that is what a 3ccd camera does; it takes one beam of light and splits it into 3 different ones, one for each chip.
Ahh, but the difference is that a high resolution black and white camera is cheap while an equally high resolution color camera is quite prohibitively expensive. Also, having the colors recorded as black and white separations would allow more control over the picture prior to creating the final AVI.

Again, the idea isn't about speed because I don't see this as being used in a commercial setting. I see this as a tool for the independent film maker that wants quality in a compact and affordable package. I could see this working for 16mm as well.

Pin registration. Hmmmm. Not a bad idea.

Roger
Sign me up Roger. I care more about the quality of my transfers than my time. I woul *love* to have the ability to do the above with 3 scans & a B&W camera.

I could not afford a 3 CCD chip DV camera to use my my Work Printer Jr (I keep looking for that UPS or FedX guy. I know it will be here any day now!!). So I bought the best 1 CCD chip camera I could find (PC Magazine Editors Choice award 'Canon Optura 20').

But in theory, the 3 color scan of a B&W camera (plus the ability to color correct) would beat out a Work Printer Jr and a 3 CCD chip DV camera IMHO.

Yea, I love it. Put me on the list.

jack in Portland oregon
Canon 1014XL-S, Workprinter, Mac & PC
al77
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Post by al77 »

Hi Roger,
This sounds great, have you got any further with your plans?
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Patrick
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Post by Patrick »

I see that the film transport would be similar to the standard workprinter set up but how would you minitarise it into a table top version? I assume that you would use the usual GAF projectors but this would leave the size of the unit the same as the original workprinter, right? Surely, it would be possible to incorporate the same speeds as the workprinter - 3, 6fps?
T-Scan
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Post by T-Scan »

Jack wrote "I could not afford a 3 CCD chip DV camera to use my my Work Printer Jr (I keep looking for that UPS or FedX guy. I know it will be here any day now!!). So I bought the best 1 CCD chip camera I could find (PC Magazine Editors Choice award 'Canon Optura 20'). "

thats a very nice camera, i just bought the Canon Optura 10 1.33 megapixel. its the same as the 20 but has a smaller LCD screen and comes with a smaller battery. i ordered the WP too, we should put something together here in Portland sometime.
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