Super 8 on a Dolly??

[Andersens Tears]

:?:

Hey!

Has anyone out there used a super cam on a Dolly??

Is it possible to focus pull with a fixed lens camera using the meter/foot gauge on the lens ring as a guide?

Has anyone shot a moving subject this way - tracking on a dolly??

I have a Nizo Professional Camera - fixed but very nice 7-80mm lens.

Would love to hear ANY opinions on this one, and what might be the best way to approach this.

Cheers!

'Tears

[mattias]

Has anyone out there used a super cam on a Dolly??

sure.

Is it possible to focus pull with a fixed lens camera using the meter/foot gauge on the lens ring as a guide?

it's possible, but there are a few problems. most lenses on super-8 cameras change the focal length slightly when pulling focus, which causes an annoying zoom effect. the other problem is that the markings aren't always very accurate, but it's of course easy to determine how much they're off by shooting some tests.

Has anyone shot a moving subject this way - tracking on a dolly??

yes, and now on the the positive: super8 has so much dof that you can often avoid having to pull focus altogether. with the zoom on wide and a 5.6 aperture you pretty much have a fixed focus camera from 1 meter to infinity.

I have a Nizo Professional Camera - fixed but very nice 7-80mm lens.

i haven't used that. might work better than my canon 814e for pulling focus, but i doubt it.

/matt

[Andersens Tears]

Tack för tipset!

Just another question: When I set zoom on wide with 5.6 aperture, is it best focus on infinity?

I'll do some test shots... If I get a chance I post my results with regards to accuracy of the lens ring markings and my actual measurements!

'Tears

[Lunar07]

Tack för tipset!

Just another question: When I set zoom on wide with 5.6 aperture, is it best focus on infinity?

Use the Hyperfocal distance. This helps in most cases to keep something in sharp focus while you dolly or the subject moves.

However, having said that, there are cases when you do want a shallow depth of field while keeping a focus on a particular subject. In such cases, you need intuition and experience. I used to be able to keep something in sharp focus with a very shallow depth of field while moving in on the subject in focus. I gained that by experience. I never liked the distance marks many people use while a second person, changing the focus, takes a hint from the distance marks on the floor or ground for example. You just have to get to the point where the lens and the focusing ring are an extension of your own vision. You may want to go that way - it is much more fun than calculating hyperfocal distances.

[mattias]

lunar is right of course, but watch out for the zoom effect.

/matt

[MovieStuff]

most lenses on super-8 cameras change the focal length slightly when pulling focus, which causes an annoying zoom effect.

Actually, all lenses will swell the image when you run the focus ring. It isn't unique to super 8 cameras. I haven't seen a rotational lens yet that doesn't swell the image when changing focus.

super8 has so much dof that you can often avoid having to pull focus altogether. with the zoom on wide and a 5.6 aperture you pretty much have a fixed focus camera from 1 meter to infinity.

Agreed. Large depth of field is (I feel) one of the benefits when working with smaller formats like S8. As Mattias noted, the markings on the lens may need to be verified before using them to pull focus or with a tape measure but you really can't beat using a tape measure and depth of field chart when shooting with a movie camera, unless it's a documentary situation.

Roger

[mattias]

Actually, all lenses will swell the image when you run the focus ring. It isn't unique to super 8 cameras. I haven't seen a rotational lens yet that doesn't swell the image when changing focus.

really? i've only seen super8 lenses and cheap slr zooms that did. none of the lenses i've used on 16mm cameras (plenty, i used to work camera crew, often focus puller, on low budget stuff) and all high end slr's (plenty, i also used to be an action sports photographer) did. i'm not talking about the subtle "swelling" of the image as it goes out of focus, which of course is inevitable, but a very straighforwards zoom effect, just like turning the zoom ring a little.

/matt

[bakanosaru]

known as "breathing"
a good lens should not noticeably breath when focussing.

a can't remember ever using a lens which does not zoom when focussing
but one just has to watch closely next time you are in the cinema and the camera pulls focus; no zooming.

baka

[S8 Booster]

Didn´t the photogapher play with some related effect on the first "Jaws" film?

At the moment the Sheriff? Roy Scheider? realized thet there WAS a shark in the beach area the camera rig moved towards him while zooming out and adjusting the focus at the same time = The charcter´s size retained the original size - seemingly creating a "vacuum" image. Strange effect. Very impressive even though Spielberged?

R

[MovieStuff]

i'm not talking about the subtle "swelling" of the image as it goes out of focus, which of course is inevitable, but a very straighforwards zoom effect, just like turning the zoom ring a little.

Swell, zoom, whatever. Same effect and it's always there. It's impossible to design a rotational lens that won't do it because you are, of course, changing the physical position of the elements inside the barrel which changes the size of the image passing through them. If you rack focus, swelling is often not noticed because of the radical difference in focus position, but the swelling does still occur. That may be why you never noticed it as a focus puller on larger formats, since the need to pull focus inherently means that DOF was limited in the first place.

Super 8 has so much depth of field that often when you run the focus ring, nothing really changes (in the way of focus) so can see the effect of swelling more easily because it's the ONLY thing that seems to change when you make a move on the ring. However, if you were to do the same thing on a wide angle lens on a Nikon while shooting outside with a high f-stop (stopped down), you'd notice the swelling because of the same reason: The focus doesn't really change because you already have an abundance of DOF so the only thing that you *would* notice is the natural swelling of the image. On the other hand, if you were shooting at a low f-stop with shallow depth of field (wide open), then you'd notice the shift in focus before you'd notice the swelling in the image. I'll agree some lenses are more pronounced than others and much is dependent on f-stop and focal length but it's still there, regardless of format.

Roger

[MovieStuff]

a good lens should not noticeably breath when focussing.

But you are qualifying that statement with the term "noticably". All lenses breath or swell. How much is dependent more on focal length and depth of field, not quality of the lens. I have used Zeiss lenses and Cooke lenses and they ALL have noticable swelling, especially at high f-stops where DOF is greater.

can't remember ever using a lens which does not zoom when focussing

That's because they all do it.

but one just has to watch closely next time you are in the cinema and the camera pulls focus; no zooming.

You mean no "noticable" zooming. See, if they are pulling focus, that means that DOF was limited to begin with (or they wouldn't be running the focus ring). Therefore, the shift in focus will normally mask the swelling of the image. If there is enough DOF that pulling focus isn't needed, then the image will remain unaffected. After all, they aren't going to run the focus ring if there's no need to pull focus!

Roger

[jumar]

Perhaps in the big scale features they just avoid the shots that are going to make the breathing noticeable. I was working with a very good 10mm prime on a 16mm project last year... The shot was a sideways dolly shot of a woman walking up the stairs toward the camera, with the bannister in the foreground, and the breathing was really terrible. For long focus pulls like that, it's probably best to avoid too many foreground convergence elements, and the breathing won't be too noticeable.

[mattias]

If you rack focus, swelling is often not noticed because of the radical difference in focus position, but the swelling does still occur.

look, i know what you're talking about, but get yourself a canon 814e and try to rack focus at any focal length and aperture. there *is* a *huge* difference between different lenses. like you say it might not have anything to do with lens quality though, so i take that back. ;-)

/matt

[Andersens Tears]

Thanks everyone for the great tips!

I need to practice these, as I am gonna double up as Director and DOP for my short, and as you all know both jobs are Highly demanding. I feel that as the Super 8 format is so finite with the amount of stock that you have at one time, then it will lend itself to more planned and streamlined shots.

I am really looking forward to it!

All the best,

'Tears

[Pepe]

I have a Nizo Professional Camera - fixed but very nice 7-80mm lens.

hi,

i have one too and also a chart specifiing, for all nizo cameras, accurate to a centimeter, all the possible depth of fields you will get depending on f stop settings, distance and lens zoom reading. just an example of what it says: your lens ring is at 8mm, at f8 and your ring set at 6 meters, you have a 0,48m to infinity d.o.f.

the chart is in german, if you are interested i can scan it and email it to you. it is made of two pieces that slip one into the other, but the outer one only has the distance measures, which are allways the same, and some comments.

p.pe