What is the very best super 8 camera ever been produced ?

[Yemi]

Hi.

It's impossible to nail down one camera that excells in all aspects. Best to determine what your priorities are and go from there.

I love Canon cameras too. Great workhorses and great value for money but I'd like to take a moment to talk about the pros and cons of Beaulieus:

Reflex Viewfinder?? - Beaulieu 4008 series! It's bigger and brighter than the rest. No virtual image guarantees that you see what the film sees. No guessing games when it comes to focussing.

Image quality?? - The c-mount gives you an almost limitless lens choice. Zooms, primes, whatever. The image is all due to the lens.

Lightmeter accuracy? - True, the 4008 series and others have a rather inaccurate metering system. The 6008 series upwards is a major improvement. Manual ASA adjustment gives you a lot of freedom.

Beaulieus are pretty fancy cameras and I agree that they are far from rugged. They are expensive compared to most Super8 cameras but there is no doubt that mirror shutters and lens interchangability put them in another class. You must decide if you need these features.

How many pro 16mm/35mm cameras on the market use reflex prisms and/or split image focussing??

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Yemi

[schmeckle]

I agree that many different cameras have their strong points but the argument is not what the perfect camera is ( if ever that were possible) but what the best is ( all issues taken into consideration. i.e. quality for the money, dependability and longevity, lenses, etc.)

[ericMartinJarvies]

the beaulieu c-mount is NOT flimsy ... not in the leadt bit. if you have a beaulieu that does have a flimsy mount, it is because there is something wrong with it ... as in damaged. a c-mount is certainly not a bayonet type mount, but for what it is, and assuming the mount is correctly fixed to the camera, you should never have a problem with it. also, on my parts 4008 i took the c-mount bracket and attached it to a block of aluminum, wherein i drilled the hole patterns is on the mount itself, and attached it with 1" bolts and nuts on the back side of the aluminum block/plate. i then took one of my c-mount threads(i have a box of them i got from an online surplus for $5.00, wherein i could convert a 35mm lens to c-mount, which i still have not done) and welded it to a plate with a rod connected to it. on the rod, i can stick these round/hollow lead things from my metel bender. once treaded into the mount, and tightened securely, the bar is held fine. i think i have added 20 pounds(ran out of rod room for those donuts things) give or take, and the actual threaded mount inside of the other threaded mount did not visual show any signs of anything. so for me, i would say it is not a thread to weight issue, rather, how well the actual mount is secured to the camera. also, the rod is 15 inches, and the weights spanned the distance. so imagine a big heavy lens. now i would not say it would be smart to mount a lens like this to a camera you will be MOVING around, because that is most likely where the problems occur. moving and bumbing would start to cause the lens to create tension, and release tension, and after some time, the threads would get works, if the mount did not come loose from the camera body first.

so the sum of it, a good 10 pound lens and some type of lens support should work for years and years without any problems with proper handling.

regarding the light meter ... it is of the most basic and simply and direct design. it attaches to the beamsplitter(the light sensor). the meter needle can easily be reconditioned back into shape ... you would be amazed at how you can bend it without breaking it, as it seems so fragile, but does indeed hold up. if you light meter is not giving you correct readings, it could be that the glue in front of the sensor on the beamsplitter is old and mucky and needs to be removed and replaced with new clear epozy. it could also be the sensor is on its last leg, in which case beaulieu still sells them for a few bucks on their website, and can be replaced by anyone with camera experience as it is on the left side of the camera chassis, so it is easy to get to. if the needle is stuck, this too is an extremely fix, as you cna gain access to it from simply removing the left body plate and then the dioptre. if the actual meter is broken, then you are screwed as it relates to finding the exact replacement ... but if you can purchase a parts beaulieu, you'd be in luck.

all said, the beaulieu is a good litle camera because it is SIMPLE and not clogged up with difficult electronics. i had no electronics experience when i took apart my first beaulieu, so i did not know what all those thingy-migigs were ... but now i do and anyone that knows what a resistor, capacitor, potentimeter, and circuitboard is, they could indeed figure it out.

also s8booster, it would be safe to say i move way beyond lubing these cameras ... i am just about finished with a completely original service and repair manual that is certianly more in depth in te factory issue manual, and it covers every aspect of the camera. i had to learn about electronics the past few months ... that was my only short coming as it related to these cameras, because i understood the mechanically. but now that i understnad enough electronics, i have no problems isolating problems within minutes. my inlaws are coming down next month and i am having them bring me some packets of resistors, capacitors, etc. that i found online so i will have replacement parts soon, which i have not had, and which has been a roadblock because there are no electronics stores in baja.

my service and repair manuals also cover the basics in understanding the electronics ... i basically took all i learned and consolidated it and applied it to each lesson/instruction set for a particular problem on the cameras.

eric

[Paul L.]

How in the world is a "flimsy C mount" a negative for the Beaulieu?? It's one of the few cameras that HAS a C mount!!

[S8 Booster]

Hi.

It's impossible to nail down one camera that excells in all aspects. Best to determine what your priorities are and go from there.
------
Yemi

Impossible to determine for newcomers.

Hi.

Reflex Viewfinder?? - Beaulieu 4008 series! It's bigger and brighter than the rest. No virtual image guarantees that you see what the film sees. No guessing games when it comes to focussing.

Yemi

Well - the 1014 XL-S viewfinder is in fact 33% bigger than the 1014E) is easier to focus in very low light than a 5008 for reference DUE to its split rangefinder than say a 5008 and the viwfinder on the 1014 X has adjustable masking so you can see EXACTLY what the film sees when the camera is set up correctly - which it is from the manufacturer. Guess the 1014 E has the same feature.

Hi.

Image quality?? - The c-mount gives you an almost limitless lens choice. Zooms, primes, whatever. The image is all due to the lens.
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Yemi

Most people stick to the common vignetting zooms and how many of the owners bothered with collimating their interchangeables with their cams? Pedro and Eric = 2? The rest is ... out of focus?

Hi.

Lightmeter accuracy? - True, the 4008 series and others have a rather inaccurate metering system. The 6008 series upwards is a major improvement. Manual ASA adjustment gives you a lot of freedom.

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Yemi

There is a general inaccuracy due to the design using the auto exposure mode due to the fact that the light metering system goes via the flickering mirror.
That is why Canon used the "electric eye" on the16 Scoopic - to gain the accuracy of the 1014 WITH a reflex mirror shutter design so safe shots can be made in auto mode with reversal films.

The 1014X even use 2 beamspliters - one for the viewfinder and one for the light metering = total exposure control and the exposure/aperture control is faster that the eye and is capable of setting the expoure faster than 100 times a second via a servo motor. Your eye will hardly register that it is operating when when you flick the camera around.

According to Pedro there is an additional faulty design in the 6008 or 7008 which causes the light metering system to measure only a part of the image causing cosistanly error readings. Can be corrected I guess if you send the cam to Bjørn Andersson.

It is possble to manually set any ASA rating on the 1014X (Guess the E is the same) from 12 asa or so to 800 ASA and set the aperture manually from f 1.4 to f45 so what is the problem. Not only so. Canon gurantees(d) the cam to hold the spec linear from ASA 25 to 400 - f1,4 to 45 and the lens is totally lienar f1,4 (or anything set between 1.4 to 145) to independant of the focal lenghth use.

Hi.

Beaulieus are pretty fancy cameras and I agree that they are far from rugged.
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Yemi

Wrong - actually very simple and most likely they were expensive because they were hand made in low numbers compared to other major brands.

The "plastic" models 6008 and up seem to be even less rugged. I like the 5008 for its heavy metal casing and housing design though.

Hi.

How many pro 16mm/35mm cameras on the market use reflex prisms and/or split image focussing??

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Yemi

They might have had if they were intended for the same use as S8 cams. Portable action shooting. The closest you get is a Canon Scoopic though which uses the electric eye rather than the beamsplitter option.

Split image rangefnders are widely used on 35mmSLR cams together with a ground glass though.


And to Eric: No insults - the Beaulieus are simple which is not nessescarily a bad thing. Also some of the rason for the vulnerability is because the lenses are allways mounted outside the camera body which makes the whole thing more vulnerable compared to say - the 1014x which has teh lens buried deep into teh dull body. Also canon make a big point of the the 1014x lens is 40% shorter than teh 1014E lens withe the same performance - said to be outstanding engineering.

The lens coating on the canons is unique and makes the K40 very rich in colours compared to plain glass lenses (Which in turn may be better for negative film).


Al this said and done. Who wants a big and expensive camera for most purposes? I just got my "Russian Tank" Quartz Wind up cam from eBay and look forward to use this extremely rugged cam to take a "Barry". ie demount the zoom and mount an anamorphic piece on the end.

That is my future.

There are certainly many other good highender cams around but teh Canona are unique in technology ad performance. It is still not the cam I need to to the job at any proce. I can use my Nikon R10, Beaulieu 5008, Elmo 1012, or Canon 310x2 or the Quartz an enjoy the super life of S8 filmmaking.

R

[Yemi]

S8 Booster wrote:

and the viwfinder on the 1014 X has adjustable masking so you can see EXACTLY what the film sees when the camera is set up correctly

I don't think you do see EXACTLY what the film sees because the reflex prism takes the viewfinder image before it passes through the iris. You do not see the correct depth of focus.

and how many of the owners bothered with collimating their interchangeables with their cams? Pedro and Eric = 2? The rest is ... out of focus?

Well that's interchangable lenses for you (Beaulieu, Bolex, etc.) If you don't want this feature look elsewhere. It's certainly not a limitation of the camera. The stock lenses that are shipped with the cameras are collimated in the factory. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that dissatisfied eBay customers are the reason why Beaulieus get such a bad rap. Half the people out there have never used a fully functioning one. They need TLC.
It's up to the individual to decide if it's worth the effort/investment.

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Yemi

[Angus]

It is widely thought that the better Beaulieus are great when they work well, otherwise the best camera is supposed to be the aforementioned Canon 1014 xls. I've not had experience with those cameras but the Canon is reckoned to be a little better than the Elmo 1012 s-xl which is truly a fantastic piece of kit.

As for features like 74fps or 54fps or interchangable lenses, it really depends on what you want the camera for. Many people will have no use for such a high speed, but some will need it and therefore the Elmo 1012 s-xl wouldn't be much good because it only does 18,24 and single frame.

My personal favourite camera, not necessarily the best, is the Elmo Super 110 with 7-70 zoom lens, 1,18,24,54 fps and near silent drive similar to the 1012s-xl. But I admit my 1012 s-xl and Beaulieu 1008XL produce steadier pictures...that Beaulieu was made by Chinon in Japan and doesn't feature such things as interchangable lenses but is a nice camera nonetheless.

[tim.callaghan]

You can keep your Canons and Beaulieus, although from what the footage I've seen shot on them - nice!

But, I've also been in the same room as them too while they're running, and without being comitted to long shots, dubbing or camera noise, you're not left with much.

The best overall camera in my opinion is the Nizo 4080/6080. Nice optics, solid build, and very very quiet. Yeh, you can still hear it, but with a directional mic, you're rocking.

If you are a)talented enough/got enough cash for dubbing b)shooting a silent then I see the fore mentioned cameras a real problem. I've even had a barneyed 1014 and it was still noisy in comparison.

Tim

[schmeckle]

Was the barneyed 1014 the xls or the E? With a silent camera you have to accept the noise. I have never used the xls but I have heard that it runs very quietly.

[Santo]

i've only recently rediscovered super8, so i can't comment on long-term reliability issues, but I'm with Tim on the sound Nizos.

I just got my 3056 from Germany yesterday. Same design as the 40's and 60's with a few less features. What a camera it is:

Quality Schneider lens
built-in Gossen light meter
stunning precision in all areas of build quality
a design decades ahead of its time that made my collaborator on my new project refuse to believe it wasn't a new camera I just bought from the local electronics store (and it was made in 1978) until i managed to convince him otherwise. seriously, pick one up and handle it and compare it to almost any other super 8 camera and you'll see what i mean

and the quietest super 8 camera I've ever heard. quieter than the one Canon 1014xls I've managed to hear from what I remember, though that one was reasonably quiet.

the big bonus is that value-wise, they run for 50 - 75 % of the 1014 xls and I bet if anybody did an objective test with a mint 6080 vs a 1014 xls it would prove to be every bit its equal if not edge it out in a few catagories.

but reliability-wise I have no idea how the various cameras stack up.

that's a really hard one because unless you bought one of these cameras new 20 plus years ago, you have no idea what they went through or how many miles are actually on them or if they were used ever once in a while to make sure they got some exercise or even if they had been serviced and rebuilt sometime before you got it.

[tangent]

I just got my "Russian Tank" Quartz Wind up cam from eBay and look forward to use this extremely rugged cam to take a "Barry". ie demount the zoom and mount an anamorphic piece on the end.

I'm curious about anyone's experience modifying these cameras to use difference lenses, particularly the idea of mounting an anamorphic on it...

I've read that the Kino has a focusing element in the body which makes using alternate lenses difficult - how do you work around this?

Any other info or links would be great!

Thanks,
jt

[schmeckle]

I have never used a Nizo but I have heard some complaints about their fragility. Maybe not as Fragile as a Beulieu but that they are sometimes notorious for developing "bugs" in their works and need more frequent maintainance than a Canon. I have also heard of Nizos not always producing steady images and this is almost never the case with a Canon. Also, If a Canon is cared for properly and handled carefully it can go 30 years or more with no serious maintainance issues.

[tim.callaghan]

Hi,

My reference was the XLS. Yes it was quieter than a lot of cameras, but still unacceptable in my opinion. It wasn't the chainsaw that some are, but still give enough ambient noise in closeup and confined spaces.

Again, from what I've read and footage I've seen, the 1014xls from a point of view of image is a superior camera, but not that superior that I'd consider using it for the noise tradeoffs.

Saying that Scott in 'In My Image' used a rather loud Beaulieu 4008. I don't know what kind of residual sound problems he had, or if he had to shoot a bit longer than wanted sometimes. There all problems that can be got around to be fair, but the Nizo does it for out of the box.

Used with a simple boom, minidisc recorder (or DV corder), Senheiser K6 system, and Nizo, I'm shooting straight off the bat, without having to come up with any imaginative solutions for anything, bar what lighting conditions can throw at me.

But don't get me wrong, I think most of the cameras in my limited experience are superb.

Tim

[Pedro]

I think I will have to add some words here.

First, the c-mount or later Bealieu-mount is anything else than negative. It is a world standard for movie cameras of several gauges and allows the semi-pro user to use the lens of his joice. One of the big +++ of Beaulieus.
Not collimated c-mount lenses is only a problem of the 2nd hand trading. How purchased (or purchases) a c-mount lens or Beaulieu-mount lens at a qualified dealer, the dealer ALWAYS will ask for the camera body to be able to adjust the lens. Same with 16 mm lenses in prof production.
If the average ebay customer thinks, he can purchase any lens for uncontrolled interchanging, you cannot blame Beaulieu quality for results that are out of focus. For film shooting, some brain and basic techncal knowledge is neccessary.
Vignetting and average quality lenses like the "low-cost" Schneider zoom 1:1,4/6-70 can be optimized with correct adjustment or exchanged to unequalled pro-lenses like the Angenieux 6-80, that shows absolutly no vignetting even at open stop, always at a high contrast performance. Or you use prime lenses to beat the image quality of all the others.

Comparing any cameras always should take in account their "technical generation". The 2008/4008/5008 series all base on mid/end 1960ies construction, providing only very basic electronical measurement funcionality and accurancy (that had been a big improvement at it´s time!). It is obvious, that the latest cameras like the hi-end Canons, developed 10 years later, are better!
The better comparison would be a 6008 model, that really provides perfect exposure even under hi-contrast conditions. I never had to correct anything over 10 years!
The 7008/9008 models have again some technical limitations in exposure measuring, that can easyly be corrected by the user. These cameras had been constructed and produced while ALL other companies, including Canon, had abandoned their customers and stopped production. Special components, that Beaulieu had used in 6008 models, had dissappeard from the world marked. So the measuring diodes of the exposure meter. A simple black cash, applied to the ground glass, can correct this easyly.

The viewfinder of the Beaulieus allows focussing in the complete area on the ground glass. No vertical or horizontal structures are neccessary like for splitt image. For me, this system improved the output of correctly focused shots very very much! No more surprises!

Concerning the reliablity of Beaulieus, I only can say that I heavyly used my 6008 between 1989 and 2000 and never had had any defect. This cameras is sturdy, you only have to take care not to force the long lens!

For me, the 6008/7008/9008 cameras are the very best because they offer some features I would not like to miss, like
- lens of my choice, even SRL lenses
- free ASA setting
- 4 fps for light accumulating shots in the dark
- 56 fps for zoom shots of still details without trembling
- accurate focussing with ground glass
- lap dissolve
- excellent service network, spare parts, accessories available

Pedro

[Pedro]

I think I will have to add some words here.

First, the c-mount or later Bealieu-mount is anything else than negative. It is a world standard for movie cameras of several gauges and allows the semi-pro user to use the lens of his joice. One of the big +++ of Beaulieus.
Not collimated c-mount lenses is only a problem of the 2nd hand trading. How purchased (or purchases) a c-mount lens or Beaulieu-mount lens at a qualified dealer, the dealer ALWAYS will ask for the camera body to be able to adjust the lens. Same with 16 mm lenses in prof production.
If the average ebay customer thinks, he can purchase any lens for uncontrolled interchanging, you cannot blame Beaulieu quality for results that are out of focus. For film shooting, some brain and basic techncal knowledge is neccessary.
Vignetting and average quality lenses like the "low-cost" Schneider zoom 1:1,4/6-70 can be optimized with correct adjustment or exchanged to unequalled pro-lenses like the Angenieux 6-80, that shows absolutly no vignetting even at open stop, always at a high contrast performance. Or you use prime lenses to beat the image quality of all the others.

Comparing any cameras always should take in account their "technical generation". The 2008/4008/5008 series all base on mid/end 1960ies construction, providing only very basic electronical measurement funcionality and accurancy (that had been a big improvement at it´s time!). It is obvious, that the latest cameras like the hi-end Canons, developed 10 years later, are better!
The better comparison would be a 6008 model, that really provides perfect exposure even under hi-contrast conditions. I never had to correct anything over 10 years!
The 7008/9008 models have again some technical limitations in exposure measuring, that can easyly be corrected by the user. These cameras had been constructed and produced while ALL other companies, including Canon, had abandoned their customers and stopped production. Special components, that Beaulieu had used in 6008 models, had dissappeard from the world marked. So the measuring diodes of the exposure meter. A simple black cash, applied to the ground glass, can correct this easyly.

The viewfinder of the Beaulieus allows focussing in the complete area on the ground glass. No vertical or horizontal structures are neccessary like for splitt image. For me, this system improved the output of correctly focused shots very very much! No more surprises!

Concerning the reliablity of Beaulieus, I only can say that I heavyly used my 6008 between 1989 and 2000 and never had had any defect. This cameras is sturdy, you only have to take care not to force the long lens!

For me, the 6008/7008/9008 cameras are the very best because they offer some features I would not like to miss, like
- lens of my choice, even SRL lenses
- free ASA setting
- 4 fps for light accumulating shots in the dark
- 56 fps for zoom shots of still details without trembling
- accurate focussing with ground glass
- lap dissolve
- excellent service network, spare parts, accessories available

Pedro