When does water ruin film?

[slashmaster]

I know very well that a film that's been in a basement flood is usually ruined. But what I'm confused about is that water is used to help process film! When does water ruin a film? It must be ok to have film in water for an hour or so for all the stages of processing but would it go bad if left in rinse water overnight? If I don't have my lomo tank and reel completely dry before I load the next film is it bad for it?

[Mmechanic]

Overnight is too long. To assume an hour can be too long for some films already.

I can tell you about how I proceeded when commissioned with cleaning films that got flooded and were covered with slurry. My consideration was that the mud particles were at the same time minerals that can be decomposed by an acid and too big to be dissolved entirely. So I decided to employ the chemical means, an acidic bath, together with a mechanical means which would be constant agitation just under the surface of a lot of water so that the particles shaken off the film could drop out of the spiral reel to the bottom of my trough. I used citric acid and it worked very well. After 15 minutes of vigorous treatment I watered each film for three minutes and took it on my drying drum like any other film that I let dry after processing. Those Regular-8 films have become projectable again.

[doug]

Many years ago my Bolex H16 toppled down an Afghan waterfall. After anxious minutes I found it in the swirling pool below (much to the amusement of two elderly turbaned men watching This was before cameras were commonplace ) I was equally worried about the Kodachrome film inside that got drenched. And it happened that the water was very rich in calcium incidentally. I just shoved the roll off to be processed and many weeks later the film came back perfect from Kodak.

(And the Bolex and lens was repaired fine.)

[doug]

Overnight is too long. To assume an hour can be too long for some films already.

I can tell you about how I proceeded when commissioned with cleaning films that got flooded and were covered with slurry. My consideration was that the mud particles were at the same time minerals that can be decomposed by an acid and too big to be dissolved entirely. So I decided to employ the chemical means, an acidic bath, together with a mechanical means which would be constant agitation just under the surface of a lot of water so that the particles shaken off the film could drop out of the spiral reel to the bottom of my trough. I used citric acid and it worked very well. After 15 minutes of vigorous treatment I watered each film for three minutes and took it on my drying drum like any other film that I let dry after processing. Those Regular-8 films have become projectable again.

I don't understand why film left in water for some time is adversely affected. Surely water itself is inert. If there is mud then I can see yes there may be problems. But slashmaster you don't have this problem ? Your only difficulty will be loading a wet spiral so the film might stick ? I haven't tried this but maybe doing it completely underwater will help.
Snorkel not necessary

[slashmaster]

Overnight is too long. To assume an hour can be too long for some films already.

I can tell you about how I proceeded when commissioned with cleaning films that got flooded and were covered with slurry. My consideration was that the mud particles were at the same time minerals that can be decomposed by an acid and too big to be dissolved entirely. So I decided to employ the chemical means, an acidic bath, together with a mechanical means which would be constant agitation just under the surface of a lot of water so that the particles shaken off the film could drop out of the spiral reel to the bottom of my trough. I used citric acid and it worked very well. After 15 minutes of vigorous treatment I watered each film for three minutes and took it on my drying drum like any other film that I let dry after processing. Those Regular-8 films have become projectable again.

Nice! So you were like an emergency room for film! Where are you getting your citric acid from? By the way, I've been trying most of the stuff you said to do but didn't have citric acid for a stop bath so I simply flushed with water instead. Do you use a lint free cloth to wipe the film while it's on your drying drum?

[slashmaster]

Many years ago my Bolex H16 toppled down an Afghan waterfall. After anxious minutes I found it in the swirling pool below (much to the amusement of two elderly turbaned men watching This was before cameras were commonplace ) I was equally worried about the Kodachrome film inside that got drenched. And it happened that the water was very rich in calcium incidentally. I just shoved the roll off to be processed and many weeks later the film came back perfect from Kodak.

(And the Bolex and lens was repaired fine.)

Being that I've kayaked with cameras before, I might have a similar problem someday. Did your camera land on its lens or did it just fill with water?

[doug]

Many years ago my Bolex H16 toppled down an Afghan waterfall. After anxious minutes I found it in the swirling pool below (much to the amusement of two elderly turbaned men watching This was before cameras were commonplace ) I was equally worried about the Kodachrome film inside that got drenched. And it happened that the water was very rich in calcium incidentally. I just shoved the roll off to be processed and many weeks later the film came back perfect from Kodak.

(And the Bolex and lens was repaired fine.)

Being that I've kayaked with cameras before, I might have a similar problem someday. Did your camera land on its lens or did it just fill with water?

There were lots of rocks on the way down so it got battered. But there was little external damage, just the RX fader twisted up. Luckily the lens escaped but everything filled with water, including internally the lens and anamorphic.
You need a good darkroom to dry the film which at least was not fogged cos of daylight spools. No caves nearby long enough !
Was probably 10 days before I got to a good post office in Kabul...

[Mmechanic]

Where are you getting your citric acid from? Do you use a lint free cloth to wipe the film while it's on your drying drum?

I purchased from a large chemicals company, barrel-wise. Still have a few kilos. Your drugstore merchant should be able to get it for you. It’s edible.

Damp viscose sponge cloth, fold it twice, pull film through it with little pressure, only to wipe and suck off the water. Squeeze water out from time to time