Does anybody still edit the old-fashion way??

[undermind]

I'm new to film and am pretty intrigued.. Part of the appeal to me about using classic equipment and recording on film is the opportunity to edit in the "classic" way; using scissors and splices.

It seems that the popular thing to do is to edit digitally, which is great. But does anybody still do all of their editing with scissors?

I'd like to edit this way, but don't know how much work I'm getting into. The simple things in life would be much more difficult this way than to edit on a computer, but that's part of the art I suppose. Am I wasting my time??

[Old Uncle Barry]

Certainly do my friend,complete with a top range motorised editor.I use good old splicers and tape,sometimes cement to join film with.It is a most satisfying method as it is tangible 'hands on' and does not feel 'distant' as with electronic methods.And yes,I've done that too and had mixed feelings.But remember,I am not a young man and like the more traditional methods.
Oh! yes,I even use a thing called a projector.
Never mind,whatever method is chosen,many people out there get great satisfaction from making and editing movies. {|=

[S8 Booster]

Hello. I double old Uncle Barry´s setup for old fashion editing.
Occationally - 1 offs - I do the DV editing.

However, I find some limitations in using some simple film editors so when very precise editing is required I make a DIY electronic copy and pre-edit the film on the MAC in advance while I make the "FinalCut!" on the real film.

I like the costless trial and error method on the computer editing to optimize the film cutting if the material is "critical".

I preffer projecting the films too.

R

[Old Uncle Barry]

There you go undermind,what did I tell you!

[jukkasil]

I also get Steenbeck 16 mm cutting board 2 days ago and I'm very happy man! I have really thought to make one short film shooting the footage first with Fomapan R 100 (16 mm), self-prosess them and just edit the whole film with my Steenbeck!

[Steve P.]

I don’t use scissors, but certainly do cut film. Actually, I do use scissors -- to cut 4-sprocket splice tapes in half.

I have a Wuerker tape splicer, and like it. Actually, I have two, as I found that that speeded up the dis- and assembly processeses.

I have a Goko motorized editor/viewer, and it's reasonably good. Actually, I have two, as I found that that speeded up the dis- and assembly processeseses. Actually, I have three, as I got a broken unit for spare parts.



Actually,

[undermind]

Thanks for the responses!

Can anyone comment on technical drawbacks to hands-on editing? Are there any techniques that simply cannot be done without editing digitally?
I realize some things have to be done on the camera like lap dissolves and fades when editing this way.

And also, can anyone suggest any specific editors/splicers? I see quite a few of them on the internet on Ebay, etc.. Just looking for a simple, inexpensive unit.

Thanks

[Angus]

Undermind,

THere are still a few splicers being made brand new. Do make sure that whatever you buy - if it is a tape splicer and not a cement one - takes the regular tape splices available from the likes of Hama and QUickSplice and not some strange propriatory splice which cannot be obtained any more. Most splicers take the generic splices, but I got caught out in 1986 buying a Hahnel Rollmatic and 200 splices only to find that when I needed more splices they weren't making them any more!

There are no editing techniques that cannot be done the "old fashioned way" but you cannot add special effects such as wipes, fades or dissolves by using an editor and splicer. Those must be done "in camera" with a suitably equipped camera. But cut and splice editing will give you frame perfect edits, and if done well the joins will last decades.

Yep...I still do it the old way, only resorting to digital editing for a few specific projects that require me to put my work on the web or email, or where I intend to distribute it on CD. Otherwise I use the old fashioned route, and even when I do finish on CD I use the old way because it is far more fun. I primarily am making a *film* which may, or may not, end up being given to others in another format.

So what you need is an editor, they tend to be much of a muchness but look out for the big names such as Goko, Elmo, Muray and so on...my unbranded one works fine though!

You need a splicer, Hama make one which in the UK sells for under £10 new. Do you want tape splices (cheaper, easier but leave a small mark on the two frames edjacent to your cut) or cement splices (more difficult).

Hee hee, I have something like five S8 projectors (one out on loan) just in case...you never know when one might die...and I guess I'm not all that old either - turned 30 this year. Good grief...been making S8 films over half my life!

[tim]

If you are making your own films, and intend to project them, don't use tape splices. One day you may want to add sound - and you can't stripe over tape splices.

The best cement splicers are those that bevel both ends of the film and so make a flat splice. Bolex is one of the best - but there are others.

I only use tape splices for repairing polyester commercial prints. Eventially the damned things slip and you get a bolt of lightning across the screen from the gap between the film.

[Angus]

Most tape splices are designed with sound film in mind. I haven't tried to stripe pre-edited film I have to admit, but I've spliced pre-striped film without any problems - the splice wraps around the side of the film with the sprocket holes leaving a gap at the other side for the sound stripe. That goes for Quick Splices and Hama splices - which are the two big brands still being sold.

All I can say about tape splices is that I started using them in 1986 and most of my tape splices made then as a ham-fisted teenager survive to this day.

When I first got my mits on my grandfather's films some 20 years after he died all his cement splices had deteriorated to the point where they could not be run through the projector.

I find projecting silent films allows those who were at the event being showcased to talk with the viewers about it. Sometimes a soundtrack actually detracts from the experience.

[tim]

Properly made cement splices should not deteriorate - I have some 50 years old with not problems. Tape will stretch in a few years, however.

I repeat: by using tape splices you are shutting the door on sound striping.

[christoph]

Can anyone comment on technical drawbacks to hands-on editing? Are there any techniques that simply cannot be done without editing digitally?
I realize some things have to be done on the camera like lap dissolves and fades when editing this way.

well, technically speaking there are *only* drawbacks :

you destroy your original a bit more with every "wrong" edit...
you can't repeat footage...
very hard to do single frame edits...
no "undo"...
no special effects in post, like no slow motion, fades, dissolves etc..
no color correction, no split screen, no crowd duplication ;)
and lots more..

actually there's pretty much only one advantage and that's a biggy:
it makes you think before you do!!

and of course you have a final result that you can project on a screen..
you have to decide yourself of those reasons are important to you...
++ christoph ++

[tim]

Oh dear! Do you techies really believe this?

no special effects in post, like no slow motion, fades, dissolves etc..
no color correction, no split screen, no crowd duplication ;)
and lots more..

I suggest you read a few books on movies special effects written before everything started to go down the digital tube.

[S8 Booster]

I use a Agfa F8S Automatic tape splicer for most purposes. I believe this has a new Hama equivalent still available. This unit uses 2 or 4 perf tapes and some of the 4 perf tapes allow dual sound stripes splices.

The tapes are avil from Hama for the Agfa splicer.

This splicer is pretty good if used correctly and the splices are tough and do not give way after 20 years.

There are 2 factors that are important and or uinique with it:

1) Even though it is made to cut and splice both film ends and splice it in 1 operation I found it better to do it in 3:
Cut one film piece, cut the next - go splicing. Carefully watch the tape when it attches to the film. If properly - splice becomes excellent.

2) This splicer is adjustable to make the cut match perfectly in the framelines - independant of cam port variations making the actual cut area invisible when the film is projected.

For cement splicing I use a Bolex recommended to me by Pedro. Very good. Things done right and glue not too old the splices should last as long as the filmmaker.

R

[christoph]

Oh dear! Do you techies really believe this?

no special effects in post, like no slow motion, fades, dissolves etc..
no color correction, no split screen, no crowd duplication ;)
and lots more..

I suggest you read a few books on movies special effects written before everything started to go down the digital tube.

thanks for the advise, but i thought we were talking about *EDITING* techniques on super8 and not during filming or in lab...

(original question:) Can anyone comment on technical drawbacks to hands-on editing? Are there any techniques that simply cannot be done without editing digitally?

sorry if that was left unmentioned
++ christoph ++

ps: i've done some split screen on super8 using lots of scotch and a needle to re-perforate thought... so i guess i was wrong there ;)