Reversal processing - no image

[pip]

Can anyone confirm or refute my suspicions here? I have previously successfully developed some Plus X and Tri X. Today when I re-exposed the film, after initial development bleach and clear, there appeared to be nice images on it. However, after redeveloping I noticed that when I drained off the developer from the tank it was grey in colour and sure enough the image appears to have been removed at the time of second development. The only thing I changed this time was that my washes at each stage were warmer. Because I had noticed marks on the film I previously developed, I was trying to get the washing more effective by warming it up. Would there be any other reason for the image to have been washed away?

[unsanity]

I have had a similar experience as this when I built a developing tank for 16mm but in my case, I hadn't made the body of the tank opaque enough. Thus it was down to overal light leakage. A few more coats of black paint solved my problem but I doubt if this applies in your case.
Otherwise it could be a bleach problem. I once used hydrochloric acid by mistake instead of sulphuric acid in the bleach, again with similar results.

Julian.

[avortex]

Are you using permangante for the bleach? If that's the case, you have to work at the exact same temperature all the time (and don't go over 20ºC) or you are going to destroy the emulsion.

Another option is to use Dichromate bleach. No temperature problems and it makes for a superior bleaching. Just be careful handling it and you're done...

[pip]

I have been using the Foma kit. The bleach is a combination of sulphuric acid and potassium permanganate in equal parts.I was confident that I saw images on the film when I removed the spiral to re-expose, but the emulsion seems to have come away in the subsequent development (to develop the original unexposed areas).

[avortex]

Yes, the problem is the permanganate then.

Remember the 2 options:

- Keep using the permanganate, but be sure to use constant temperature and never get over 20ºC.
- Change to dichromate bleach. It doesn't soften the emulsion but makes it stronger.
If you go this route, be very careful with the dichromate. It's a powerful poison, so use gloves and mask.

[aj]

Can anyone confirm or refute my suspicions here? I have previously successfully developed some Plus X and Tri X. Today when I re-exposed the film, after initial development bleach and clear, there appeared to be nice images on it. However, after redeveloping I noticed that when I drained off the developer from the tank it was grey in colour and sure enough the image appears to have been removed at the time of second development. The only thing I changed this time was that my washes at each stage were warmer. Because I had noticed marks on the film I previously developed, I was trying to get the washing more effective by warming it up. Would there be any other reason for the image to have been washed away?

What temperature did you use for the water? If it was really warm/hot it may well have caused the melt off of the emulsion.
I wash in between chemistry baths with two shots of water which are drained off almost immediately. Foma kit are all single shot and there is no purpose in long washing.

[chrisgavin]

I've not tried BW reversal processing yet. I think while there is BW negative film I'll keep using that. The negative processing is just like it is for stills films, just using developer (one shot, either ID11 from stock solution or Caffenol C-M), stop bath (water!), and fixer (re-usable).
All this happens at 20degrees C and no nasty bleaches at all. Being at room temperature and using less noxious chemicals keeps this all really simple, cheap and fun to do.

I'd be interested to hear about any possible advantages offered by doing BW reversal (apart from having a projectable positive film of course.)

[nikonr10]

Yes, the problem is the permanganate then.

Remember the 2 options:

- Keep using the permanganate, but be sure to use constant temperature and never get over 20ºC.
- Change to dichromate bleach. It doesn't soften the emulsion but makes it stronger.

If you go this route, be very careful with the dichromate. It's a powerful poison, so use gloves and mask.

B/W Reversal I found very easy too DO , If you use Dichromate bleach and make your own B/w devs / fixer ,

and cheap, see past post's , and will last along time that's the bleach ,


Oh yeah do not drink dichromate ?

[pip]

I would tend to agree that it is easier to achieve satisfactory results by processing to negative, but it looks like my problem was solely to do with having the water too warm. The other problem I have with reversal is eliminating all marks from the film.

[nikonr10]

I would tend to agree that it is easier to achieve satisfactory results by processing to negative, but it looks like my problem was solely to do with having the water too warm. The other problem I have with reversal is eliminating all marks from the film.

For me! YOU can not beat DIY film making , reversal film processing take's time to learn been it E6 or B/W, and you will make mistake's and pay hard ? ie like loading film in to lomo tank etc, I know because I have !
But that's part and pracel of learning this craft which then can become a Art form in the right hands ,
SO keep working at it and read up on past post's !

I have learned lot from this Forum , there is a lot of tips and tricks , most of all keep it DIY ,

[Angus]

I've never had any trouble with B&W reversal processing, but I always make up my own acidified potassium dichromate bleach. I have the advantage of working in a laboratory environment and an employer who doesn't mind "losing" what to them is a tiny amount of the chemicals involved.

The Foma kit is probably designed for Fomapan-R which is quite different to Kodak and other reversal films. I believe what everyone is saying about the bleach and temperature to be true.

I once tried processing Fomapan-R using the developers and bleach that I would use for tri-x etc. and got nothing.

[pip]

I would like to get do reversal processing with the Ilford chemicals (Ilfotec DDX, Ilfostop, Ilford rapid fixer). Ilford chemicals can be readily accessed and Ilford are very helpful. However, Ilford are unable to supply chemicals for bleach. Kodak don't seem to supply chemicals and nowhere does it seem possible to obtain bleach.

[Angus]

I have used Ilford ID-11 as the first and second developer in processing super 8 B&W reversal, it works fine.

Acidified potassium dichromate solution is probably difficult to obtain, as is potassium dichromate powder as a raw chemical. The EU regulations have been tightened, and both potassium and ammonium dichromate are affected. Unless you're a laboratory (photo or chemical) or an educational establishment you probably cannot get hold of it anywhere in Europe. The reasons are possibly due to health hazards - it's not good to get it on your skin, ingest it and it is mildly carcinogenic. It's also definitely NOT a chemical that the water/sewer people would like to see in large quantities down the drain.

However, I would argue that used carefully and in the small quantities us amateur photographers need, it's perfectly OK. Mind you, my wife might disagree due to the orange stains streaked down the door of one cupboard in our kitchen!!!

Bottom line, you're not going to find dichromate bleach any more. If you are in the fortunate position to have access to industrial or educational chemicals then you can mix your own if you know what you are doing (the process *is* hazardous). Ordinary B&W developers such as those from Ilford, Kodak et al will work though specialised reversal kits will give better contrast. I got OK results with ID-11, and great results with Kodak D76.

[avortex]

In Spain is still possible to buy Potassium dichromate today, so check some companies. I don't know if there are shipping problems...

Just wanted to give a tip about the dichromate bleach: After use, mix it with your clearing bath (sodium sulfite) before it goes down the drain. The colour will turn from orange to green, and it's almost harmless in that form ;)

[nikonr10]

In Spain is still possible to buy Potassium dichromate today, so check some companies. I don't know if there are shipping problems...

Just wanted to give a tip about the dichromate bleach: After use, mix it with your clearing bath (sodium sulfite) before it goes down the drain. The colour will turn from orange to green, and it's almost harmless in that form ;)

There is a lot of life in this's Bleach can use's many time's over ! like all darkroom work be wise ! and do not drink ,or use as aftershave !