Announcing the new UltraPan8 Facebook web page

[carllooper]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your draft Ultrapan8 page.

If I may make a suggestion: I find when you talk about lenses, I feel it could be a bit confusing to the reader.

It should be stated that only lenses made for 16mm cameras will work properly for Ultrapan8.

Of course H16RX lenses are preferred for focal lengths wider or equal to 50mm.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis

Ah thanks Jean-Louis. I didn't actually realise that. Will amend accordingly.

Done:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~carllooper ... raPan8.pdf

cheers
C

[Lunar07]

I told you that couple of times. But it takes someone else to convince you ;)
16mm RX format lenses in the focal length range of 8mm format lenses.
I even wrote the list. So I do not understand how you did not realize that.

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your draft Ultrapan8 page.

If I may make a suggestion: I find when you talk about lenses, I feel it could be a bit confusing to the reader.

It should be stated that only lenses made for 16mm cameras will work properly for Ultrapan8.

Of course H16RX lenses are preferred for focal lengths wider or equal to 50mm.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis

Ah thanks Jean-Louis. I didn't actually realise that. Will amend accordingly.

Done:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~carllooper ... raPan8.pdf

cheers
C

[carllooper]

I told you that couple of times. But it takes someone else to convince you ;)
16mm RX format lenses in the focal length range of 8mm format lenses.
I even wrote the list. So I do not understand how you did not realize that.

I wasn't aware that 8mm Bolex cameras used different lenses from 16mm Bolex cameras. The camera I had modded was an H16 and I've never used an H8, or any 8mm camera. Just 35mm, 16mm and Super8 - so understand the difference in focal length. In retrospect it's probably obvious that an 8mm camera might use different lenses, but there you go - I'm one of the idiots for which the paper is being drafted.

But also, looking over your threads I don't think anything you said would have necessarily resolved my particular error. But thanks anyway. Just my ignorance really

cheers
C

[Lunar07]

Bolex 8mm cameras (C8, B8 etc.... and H8) use a D-mount.
Except for the Bolex H8-RX which uses a special C-mount that is incompatible with other C-mounts.

I told you that couple of times. But it takes someone else to convince you ;)
16mm RX format lenses in the focal length range of 8mm format lenses.
I even wrote the list. So I do not understand how you did not realize that.

I wasn't aware that 8mm Bolex cameras used different lenses from 16mm Bolex cameras. The camera I had modded was an H16 and I've never used an H8, or any 8mm camera. Just 35mm, 16mm and Super8 - so understand the difference in focal length. In retrospect it's probably obvious that an 8mm camera might use different lenses, but there you go - I'm one of the idiots for which the paper is being drafted.

But also, looking over your threads I don't think anything you said would have necessarily resolved my particular error. But thanks anyway. Just my ignorance really

cheers
C

[carllooper]

Bolex 8mm cameras (C8, B8 etc.... and H8) use a D-mount.
Except for the Bolex H8-RX which uses a special C-mount that is incompatible with other C-mounts.

Ok. Thanks. So for 8mm cameras being modded to UltraPan8 they would no doubt need to specify what mount they require - the default being a C mount. I might mention that in the paper. If you can think of anything else to add or change, feel free to suggest. It's just a draft at this point.

Carl

[carllooper]

I've updated the draft, in particular the last section on "Why Shoot Film" which is probably superfluous, but involves my pet interest in film scanning and digital processing.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~carllooper ... raPan8.pdf

[Lunar07]

Only C-mount cameras are modded into UltraPan8. An H8-RX with its special C-mount OR an H16-RX with its C-mount.
The final result of an UltraPan8 is a camera that uses 16mm RX lenses. So, no, they can not specify what mount they require.
There is only one mount, so far, for an UltraPan8: C-Mount for 16mm RX lenses.

8mm cameras with a D-mount are not modded into UltraPan8.
I'll take a look at the draft.

Bolex 8mm cameras (C8, B8 etc.... and H8) use a D-mount.
Except for the Bolex H8-RX which uses a special C-mount that is incompatible with other C-mounts.

Ok. Thanks. So for 8mm cameras being modded to UltraPan8 they would no doubt need to specify what mount they require - the default being a C mount. I might mention that in the paper. If you can think of anything else to add or change, feel free to suggest. It's just a draft at this point.

Carl

[carllooper]

Only C-mount cameras are modded into UltraPan8. An H8-RX with its special C-mount OR an H16-RX with its C-mount.
The final result of an UltraPan8 is a camera that uses 16mm RX lenses. So, no, they can not specify what mount they require.
There is only one mount, so far, for an UltraPan8: C-Mount for 16mm RX lenses.

8mm cameras with a D-mount are not modded into UltraPan8.

Thanks for that. So are there any lenses that would work on an H8-RX C mount camera but wouldn't work after the camera was converted to UltraPan8? I guess what I'm getting at is if lenses for H8-RX C mount cameras are no different from those for H16-RX C mount cameras the question of which lenses to use for either camera, after modification, would be presumably redundant. But I'll keep the lens recommendation in anyway - doesn't hurt. I was just curious.

C

ps. I'm not sure it's true to say there is only one mount so far: C mount. Has not this whole issue of what should be considered a "normal" lens (or lens mount) for UltraPan8 resulted from the fact that some have used alternatives to C mounts? The risk in dumbing down the information, or otherwise normalising it, is inadvertently suggesting or saying things that are not so (as I've demonstrated on numerous occasions myself). What we want to do is certainly prescribe a kind of standard version of UltraPan8, ie. for idiots such as myself, but not in any way that would exclude in advance consideration of more exotic versions. Many people are actually interested in the exotic as well, as early adopters have demonstrated. [I think this kind of thing happens sometimes in the advocacy of narrative film, as if narrative film requires, for some weird reason, rejection or exclusion of alternative film - but of course the inverse can also occur - anyway excuse the critical theory creeping in here ]

pps. So I've altered the paragraph on cameras to read:

As of writing the standard camera being converted to UltraPan8 is a Bolex RX camera, either an H8-RX or an H16-RX. These cameras are relatively easy to acquire. Those with a C mount (as is normal) are recommended as the lenses for such are more readily available.

[Lunar07]

Only C-mount cameras are modded into UltraPan8. An H8-RX with its special C-mount OR an H16-RX with its C-mount.
The final result of an UltraPan8 is a camera that uses 16mm RX lenses. So, no, they can not specify what mount they require.
There is only one mount, so far, for an UltraPan8: C-Mount for 16mm RX lenses.

8mm cameras with a D-mount are not modded into UltraPan8.

Thanks for that. So are there any lenses that would work on an H8-RX C mount camera but wouldn't work after the camera was converted to UltraPan8? I guess what I'm getting at is if lenses for H8-RX C mount cameras are no different from those for H16-RX C mount cameras the question of which lenses to use for either camera, after modification, would be presumably redundant. But I'll keep the lens recommendation in anyway - doesn't hurt. I was just curious.

No H8-RX C mount lens will work on the UP8 camera. H8-RX lenses are different from H16-RX C mount lenses. H8-RX C-Mount is a special C-mount with a different flange distance. Please do not mention H8-RX lenses in your paper. H16-RX lenses should be used with UP8.

ps. I'm not sure it's true to say there is only one mount so far: C mount. Has not this whole issue of what should be considered a "normal" lens (or lens mount) for UltraPan8 resulted from the fact that some have used alternatives to C mounts? The risk in dumbing down the information, or otherwise normalising it, is inadvertently suggesting or saying things that are not so (as I've demonstrated on numerous occasions myself).

What do you mean by 'Normal' lens (or lens mount)? Do you mean focal length of a NORMAL lens **for a given format**? If so, this stays the same regardless of mount. Question is: if a given lens will work on a mount. For UP8 the Normal is a lens with a range of 10mm-12mm focal length.
As to: there is only one mount so far: C mount. Yes there is the C mount. Mainly the Standard C mount. But the Bolex H16-RX also utilizes the C-mount and so does H8-RX. But these lenses are designed differently and were not designed to work on Standard C-mount.
Alternatives to C-mount on UP8? Bayonet type? the NORMAL lens for UP8 remains in the range 10mm-12mm focal length of the H16-RX type on a Bayonet-type camera. On a Bayonet type mount, you are still using H16-RX Zoom lenses, and H16-RX prime lenses with the Bayonet to C-mount adapter. Please note, again, NORMAL for a given format stays the same regardless of mount you are using.

[carllooper]

What do you mean by 'Normal' lens (or lens mount)? Do you mean focal length of a NORMAL lens **for a given format**? If so, this stays the same regardless of mount. Question is: if a given lens will work on a mount. For UP8 the Normal is a lens with a range of 10mm-12mm focal length.

No, I wasn't referring to the focal length as such, but the discussion that took place around the use of mounts other than C mount, eg. bayonet mounts, ie. the argument that depicting such mounts was not a good path to the world domination of UltraPan8.

Out of such followed the idea of putting together something like an Idiots guide for UltraPan8 that would prescribe a kind of standard version of UltraPan8 without exotic mounts, ie. that would be more conducive to UltraPan8s eventual domination of the known universe.

As to: there is only one mount so far: C mount. Yes there is the C mount. Mainly the Standard C mount. But the Bolex H16-RX also utilizes the C-mount and so does H8-RX. But these lenses are designed differently and were not designed to work on Standard C-mount.

Ok. No problem, I understand (I think). A Bolex C mount camera (both H16 and H8) uses a C mount (obviously), but the lenses for this C mount require specifically Bolex C mount lenses, in particular RX, or at least they do in the range at or below 50mm. And for UltraPan8 it is specifically lenses made for 16mm cameras (ie. for the H16-RX camera) that are required. An H8-RX lens, while certainly a C mount lens, will not work with UltraPan8 (as presumably it's radius isn't large enough and would vignette).

Alternatives to C-mount on UP8? Bayonet type? the NORMAL lens for UP8 remains in the range 10mm-12mm focal length of the H16-RX type on a Bayonet-type camera. On a Bayonet type mount, you are still using H16-RX Zoom lenses, and H16-RX prime lenses with the Bayonet to C-mount adapter. Please note, again, NORMAL for a given format stays the same regardless of mount you are using.

You say: "On a bayonet type mount you are still using H16-RX lenses" implying a bayonet camera rather than a C mount camera? Indeed you specifically refer to a "bayonet type camera". If only C mount cameras have been so far modded (as you seemed to be suggesting in an earlier post) then talk of a bayonet camera would be redundant. Or have I got this back to front?

Anyway, I'm going to leave the paragraph on cameras as not excluding other mounts. For those requiring a prescription (such as myself) a C mount camera will remain as a recommendation rather than as a rule.

cheers
Carl

[bolextech]

8mm cameras with a D-mount are not modded into UltraPan8.

Actually, a non-reflex H8 with D-mount could be transformed to shoot UP8.

It wouldn't be as user friendly of course; precise framing would be difficult, subject to parallax.

As of now, no one has ever requested such a conversion.

Cheers,
jean-Louis

[carllooper]

Actually, a non-reflex H8 with D-mount could be transformed to shoot UP8. It wouldn't be as user friendly of course; precise framing would be difficult, subject to parallax. As of now, no one has ever requested such a conversion.

Cool. I'll put that into the chapter on alternative mods.

C

[Lunar07]

No, I wasn't referring to the focal length as such, but the discussion that took place around the use of mounts other than C mount, eg. bayonet mounts, ie. the argument that depicting such mounts was not a good path to the world domination of UltraPan8.

Bayonet mounts are fine but my opinion was that emphasizing them on the Facebook page of UP8 was not helpful because most users will go for a C-mount turret camera.

Ok. No problem, I understand (I think). A Bolex C mount camera (both H16 and H8) uses a C mount (obviously), but the lenses for this C mount require specifically Bolex C mount lenses, in particular RX, or at least they do in the range at or below 50mm. And for UltraPan8 it is specifically lenses made for 16mm cameras (ie. for the H16-RX camera) that are required. An H8-RX lens, while certainly a C mount lens, will not work with UltraPan8 (as presumably it's radius isn't large enough and would vignette).

As far as H8 goes in C-mount (H8-RX camera) Bolex made one type of C-mount cameras with H8-RX lenses.
As for 16mm format, Bolex made two types of cameras, the H-16 with its standard C-mount where you can use any standard C-mount lens, and the REFLEX Bolex H-16 (H-16 RX) that uses RX C-mount lenses. The former type of such lenses as Pizar, Yvar and Switar usually have the designation "C" or "AR" on the inside rim. The latter type has the "RX" designation or the older designation "DV" (Direct View) on the lens. These are the ones we want.
For lenses over 50mm in focal length, the distinction disappears.

Alternatives to C-mount on UP8? Bayonet type? the NORMAL lens for UP8 remains in the range 10mm-12mm focal length of the H16-RX type on a Bayonet-type camera. On a Bayonet type mount, you are still using H16-RX Zoom lenses, and H16-RX prime lenses with the Bayonet to C-mount adapter. Please note, again, NORMAL for a given format stays the same regardless of mount you are using.

You say: "On a bayonet type mount you are still using H16-RX lenses" implying a bayonet camera rather than a C mount camera? Indeed you specifically refer to a "bayonet type camera". If only C mount cameras have been so far modded (as you seemed to be suggesting in an earlier post) then talk of a bayonet camera would be redundant. Or have I got this back to front?

A Bolex with a bayonet mount (like Bolex SBM) is a reflex camera that uses the same principles as the H16-RX cameras. I do not know what has been modded. All I was suggesting is that eventually most modded cameras will be turret C-mount cameras.

[carllooper]

Bayonet mounts are fine but my opinion was that emphasizing them on the Facebook page of UP8 was not helpful because most users will go for a C-mount turret camera ...

Thanks heaps Lunar07. Lots of really good info there. Very much appreciated. I'll get some graphics going on that paper and fill in the contact details. Run it past Nicholas an Jean-Louis etc.

cheers
C