kodak bankrupt

[8mm]

Digital photo/film making is dead! It has always been and will be a dead format (or format it's not a format it's just made out of air).
I will celebrate the 80th year anniversary of 8mm this year and also celebrate the next 80 glorious years in celluloid film making!

[MIKI-814]

Why people insist on killing Kodak even at film forums? They have already explained thousand times:

- Film sales are profitable for Kodak
- Kodak have asked for voluntary bankrupt in order to reorganize all it's businesses
- Kodak plans include of course to continue manufacturing film

...so ??

[Lunar07]

With big corporations profits are not everything. Profit and Growth is! If you follow stocks and Wall Street from time to time you would notice that most companies, with stocks going south after a quarterly report, are actually making a quarterly profit but does not meet expectations or their products may have a shrinking market. This is all a game of projections, expectations and finding new markets to grow.
Also, even with film sales profitable, losses in other departments are weighing in and tipping the balance.
Kodak could not make a dent in the digital market and this is affecting the balance sheet.
Kodak's outlook, as a corporation, is not bright!

Why people insist on killing Kodak even at film forums? They have already explained thousand times:

- Film sales are profitable for Kodak
- Kodak have asked for voluntary bankrupt in order to reorganize all it's businesses
- Kodak plans include of course to continue manufacturing film

...so ??

[carllooper]

Even with film sales profitable, losses in other departments are weighing in and tipping the balance.
Kodak could not make a dent in the digital market and this is affecting the balance sheet.

Which is why they are in bankrupt proceedings. However it is no longer a question of what Kodak (as a company) wants but what a restructured Kodak will now have to become. Prior to the bankruptcy tactic Kodak wanted to sell off their digital assets to fund their efforts in the printer domain. But no one was buying. Perhaps buyers smelt a bargain to be had by holding off. Wait for Kodak to die and then descend. For consumers of film (which is what most people here are more concerned about) Kodak's film machine is fine. Kodak have no problem in that department (other than growth - but downsizing easily accomodates that). For growth Kodak are banking on (or want to bank on) printers - but without income from sale of their digital assets they can't complete the positioning they've been doing in that domain. By going through bankrupt proceedings now (rather than later) they are effectively sending a signal which says - if you want these digital assets - now is the time - there won't be any better opportunity for you (bargain hunters) to obtain these digital assets - and this is precisely what Kodak wants - for the digital companies (or any company) to bite the bullet and come to the party - ie. before Kodak is officially dead - which will then provide the income (if only a fraction of what Kodak deserves) that such a sale would provide.

In effect the bankrupt process is the end of the line for buyers (who were otherwise holding out or unaware), but not (quite) the end of the line for the seller. This is somewhat simplifying the situation of course but that's the kind of thing going on. An end game that has been brought forward a little in order to manage what are otherwise very good assets - irregardless of who ultimately benefits. Capitalism is a force unto itself - capable of reincarnation in all sorts of bizzare ways. Look at China!

Kodak's outlook, as a corporation, is not bright!

True. But in the worst case scenario (for consumers of film rather than lovers of companies or of Kodak) this is irrelevant. It doesn't ultimately matter whether Kodak's outlook, as a corporation, is bright or black. Since the film side of the business is profitable it will be easy for Kodak to sell it off (or for liquidators to sell it off) or easy to keep (if their "going forward" business plan (whether their idea or the business logic of others) are approved or otherwise succeed).

Personally I'm a sucker for the Kodak brand so I hope they win (rather than someone else).

[MIKI-814]

With big corporations profits are not everything. Profit and Growth is! If you follow stocks and Wall Street from time to time you would notice that most companies, with stocks going south after a quarterly report, are actually making a quarterly profit but does not meet expectations or their products may have a shrinking market. This is all a game of projections, expectations and finding new markets to grow.
Also, even with film sales profitable, losses in other departments are weighing in and tipping the balance.
Kodak could not make a dent in the digital market and this is affecting the balance sheet.
Kodak's outlook, as a corporation, is not bright!

Why people insist on killing Kodak even at film forums? They have already explained thousand times:

- Film sales are profitable for Kodak
- Kodak have asked for voluntary bankrupt in order to reorganize all it's businesses
- Kodak plans include of course to continue manufacturing film

...so ??

You are mixing here the stocks profit for investors, and the profit of the products itself, which in terms of the future of Kodak film (what is of interest for us) are completely different things. Film is profitable for Kodak, and this is the only important thing because even in the case of Kodak sinking forever, their Film Division would have a price and an interest for some other company to continue with it.

Not all the profitable businesses in this world are in any stock exchange market.

[MIKI-814]

True. But in the worst case scenario (for consumers of film rather than lovers of companies or of Kodak) this is irrelevant. It doesn't ultimately matter whether Kodak's outlook, as a corporation, is bright or black. Since the film side of the business is profitable it will be easy for Kodak to sell it off (or for liquidators to sell it off) or easy to keep (if their "going forward" business plan (whether their idea or the business logic of others) are approved or otherwise succeed).

I agree with this

[Lunar07]

I mentioned stocks as an example of how profit does not reflect the well being of a company on the long run. So I was commenting directly on your statement that Kodak is OK since they are making profit in their film division.
THUS, my statement that Kodak is not essentially doing OK because future projections is not boding well with the company.
Stocks are an indicator of projected well being on the long run. This is why the general movement of gain and loss of stocks on Wall Street, the Dow index, is an important economic index ;)
Profit and Growth, to repeat, are taken into consideration hand in hand!
How Kodak restructures is important now. But with no GROWTH prospects in sight, however profitable something is, the outlook remains not good. Because lack of growth prospects affects your ability to get INVESTORS to invest much needed money that can be used in R&D for example, even if you are making a billion dollars in profit.

With big corporations profits are not everything. Profit and Growth is! If you follow stocks and Wall Street from time to time you would notice that most companies, with stocks going south after a quarterly report, are actually making a quarterly profit but does not meet expectations or their products may have a shrinking market. This is all a game of projections, expectations and finding new markets to grow.
Also, even with film sales profitable, losses in other departments are weighing in and tipping the balance.
Kodak could not make a dent in the digital market and this is affecting the balance sheet.
Kodak's outlook, as a corporation, is not bright!

Why people insist on killing Kodak even at film forums? They have already explained thousand times:

- Film sales are profitable for Kodak
- Kodak have asked for voluntary bankrupt in order to reorganize all it's businesses
- Kodak plans include of course to continue manufacturing film

...so ??

You are mixing here the stocks profit for investors, and the profit of the products itself, which in terms of the future of Kodak film (what is of interest for us) are completely different things. Film is profitable for Kodak, and this is the only important thing because even in the case of Kodak sinking forever, their Film Division would have a price and an interest for some other company to continue with it.

Not all the profitable businesses in this world are in any stock exchange market.

[BAC]

Article about the profitability of Kodak film:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journ ... able-kodak

A promising quote from the article:

Silverprint, a UK distributor and retailer of film equipment, agrees, stating that "over the last 12 months our sales figures of traditional film and paper have risen."

[MIKI-814]

Article about the profitability of Kodak film:

http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journ ... able-kodak

A promising quote from the article:

Silverprint, a UK distributor and retailer of film equipment, agrees, stating that "over the last 12 months our sales figures of traditional film and paper have risen."

Ilford (B&W film manufacturer) also rekons sales figures have risen in the last year. Kodak says Super8 and 65mm sales have risen too. Not too bad after all!

[Will2]

Kodak says Super8 and 65mm sales have risen too. Not too bad after all!

We should all shoot more 65mm!

[MIKI-814]

Kodak says Super8 and 65mm sales have risen too. Not too bad after all!

We should all shoot more 65mm!

I'm looking for a decent Canon to do it!

[Muckymuck]

Ilford, who were once much bigger, and once looking like a dead duck, turned a profit of around £1 million last year.

They re-structured under new ownership, now have a smaller, more streamlined operation and do more or less everything (manufacturing, film processing and mail order b&w photo finishing (both film and digital) in house at their factory in the North of England.

Kodak may follow suit becoming a smaller organisation doing what they do best in-house... watch this space. In any event, aren't their cameras all made in China under licence now anyway?

[Angus]

One of Kodak's problems in the consumer sector is reputation. When did you last know anyone who thought Kodak cameras were actually any good? Ask someone off the street to name 'good' brands of camera and they're going to say Fuji, Olympus, Sony, Canon....Kodak won't be in there.

In fact, when I was pressed into recommending a digital camera at a set price for work a few years ago we ended up buying a Kodak and it's still in use. It's a nice piece of kit, and was thoroughly competitive with the offerings from Fuji and Olympus at the time (2006). But I bet few were sold due to Kodak's inability to gain a reputation and position in the digital market place.

When I think of Kodak branded cameras I think "instamatic"...or in other words a POS cheap-o-crap camera for people who don't know what they're doing.

Kodak failed to gain much of a foothold in the digital camera market, or printer market despite having good products. They may well end up being a more streamlined organisation and necessarily smaller...but still going relatively strong.

Sucks for the employees who will lose their jobs if Kodak downsizes...but realistically the world of photography 'needs' Kodak.

[marc]

Capitalism is a force unto itself - capable of reincarnation in all sorts of bizzare ways. Look at China!

China's rise to economic power was engineered by the global elite. The same ones that have engineered the decline of the U.S. and Europe. It is apart of their global social re-engineering scheme. Anyway, I can assure you that you would not want to live in China. It is not all that it is cracked up to be.
As far as film is concerned, what everybody is forgetting is SILVER. The same speculators among the elite class assisting in this global social re-engineering are artifcially supressing the price of precious metals like silver. As high as they are now, they should be much higher. When they can no longer keep it down indefinitely, it will skyrocket to prices that will make film anything but a sound investment for filmmaking.

[Will2]

...it will skyrocket to prices that will make film anything but a sound investment for filmmaking.

But then I can melt down all my vast inventory of film for the silver and make a killing! Baaaaahaaaahaaahaaa!!! (evil laugh)