The Film Group Pilotone to Digital Converter

[erkanumut]

Does anyone have experiment with the Pilotone to Digital Converter ? Using camera's PC socket and stereo tape recorder's one channel for pulse (pilot) recording.
I have a Nikon R10 offering a PC (Flash) terminal. I also have a SONY TC-D5 PROII offering two XLR (L/R) inputs.
I want to make double-system sync sound movies without any modifications to my camera and recorder.
Any alternatives incl. DIY projects you tried?
Thank you very much!

References:
http://www.webtfg.com/sync11.htm
http://www.super8sync.com/super8sync/Shooting_Film.html

[Will2]

Haven't tried the device, but what is that camera in your avatar photo?

[erkanumut]

Haven't tried the device, but what is that camera in your avatar photo?

Soviet-made Kinor 35R. Here is a leaflet:

Code: Select all

http://www.mediafire.com/?68dyt3slzva83ae

[Lunar07]

Check my post:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14556&p=201456&hili ... ne#p201456

For Digital to Pilotone (not pilotone to digital) to have any meaning you should have a projector that in turn can be controlled via this pilotone signal off your recorder.
Do not waste your money and do following:
1. Crystal Sync your Sony TC-D5 PROII, OR get the Crystal Sync generator that connects to one track of this recorder. Both offered via Film Group.
2. Crystal Sync your Nikon R10.

No modifications to the Camera? Then you need the digital to pilotone converter, AND a projector that can be speed controlled via the pilotone signal. This is equivalent to the Fujica system of yesteryears with the Z800 or ZC1000, Sync-Puls generator, Fujica Recorder, Puls-Sync Controller, and a Fujicascope model that can be controlled by the signal from the Controller.

So question is: Are there any projectors that can be controlled via pilotone? A guy who used to post here used to do custom modifications to certain Bauer projectors. He is in Germany, and his name, I believe, is Pedro? I think he is the same guy of www.super8sync.com. OR get an Elmo projector which can be controlled via an external sync signal or an Elmo projector model that can run at a crystal sync speed.
Do you want to view final synched audio/footage on a projector or do you want to transfer ultimately to digital?

Does anyone have experiment with the Pilotone to Digital Converter ? Using camera's PC socket and stereo tape recorder's one channel for pulse (pilot) recording.
I have a Nikon R10 offering a PC (Flash) terminal. I also have a SONY TC-D5 PROII offering two XLR (L/R) inputs.
I want to make double-system sync sound movies without any modifications to my camera and recorder.
Any alternatives incl. DIY projects you tried?
Thank you very much!

References:
http://www.webtfg.com/sync11.htm
http://www.super8sync.com/super8sync/Shooting_Film.html

[erkanumut]

Check my post:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14556&p=201456&hili ... ne#p201456

For Digital to Pilotone (not pilotone to digital) to have any meaning you should have a projector that in turn can be controlled via this pilotone signal off your recorder.
Do not waste your money and do following:
1. Crystal Sync your Sony TC-D5 PROII, OR get the Crystal Sync generator that connects to one track of this recorder. Both offered via Film Group.
2. Crystal Sync your Nikon R10.

No modifications to the Camera? Then you need the digital to pilotone converter, AND a projector that can be speed controlled via the pilotone signal. This is equivalent to the Fujica system of yesteryears with the Z800 or ZC1000, Sync-Puls generator, Fujica Recorder, Puls-Sync Controller, and a Fujicascope model that can be controlled by the signal from the Controller.

So question is: Are there any projectors that can be controlled via pilotone? A guy who used to post here used to do custom modifications to certain Bauer projectors. He is in Germany, and his name, I believe, is Pedro? I think he is the same guy of http://www.super8sync.com. OR get an Elmo projector which can be controlled via an external sync signal or an Elmo projector model that can run at a crystal sync speed.
Do you want to view final synched audio/footage on a projector or do you want to transfer ultimately to digital?

Thank you so much for your detailed reply.

By the way, I am looking for a UHER 1200 sync open-reel which will be reasonable than a NAGRA. I already have a brand-new UHER external X-tal generator accessory for this. I hope that this accessory will help for resolving someday, too...
I also have an eclair ACL II which is X-tal sync.
I can use the digital to pilotone converter for Nikon R10 w/o modification, so feed the UHER with this pilotone!
Maybe I can use the external X-tal generator for SONY's single channel, but I am afraid of sync signal may cause problem for other sound channel.

I want the final on digital.

[Lunar07]

I can use the digital to pilotone converter for Nikon R10 w/o modification, so feed the UHER with this pilotone!
Maybe I can use the external X-tal generator for SONY's single channel, but I am afraid of sync signal may cause problem for other sound channel.
I want the final on digital.

The Sony recorder you have is quite reliable. I would not worry about it. I have used it with no problems (I have the crystal synched one). However regardless of the recorder you are using, if the final is going to digital then you got NO business dealing with cabled pilotone. Period. End of story! Did that! Done that! do the right thing! If you are building your own system it will end up costing so much money you may as well crystal sync the Nikon R10 and the recorder (via an external crystal sync generator NOT connected to a camera OR a built-in generator). Both can be done at Film Group.
Reason is that the sound track you have with Pilotone is FOREVER married to the footage via a projector OR any visual aide that must be controlled with the pilotone signal track. This will be your only way to transfer your audio/video project. Resolving the audio separately will not help you. Because if you do that you would have lost the HISTORY associated with the variations in footage film speed. If this happens, kiss your synched project goodbye.

[erkanumut]

What I think to do is attached. But I have no idea about the resolving process...

"The unit is designed to accept 24fps switch closures, such as is provided by the camera's PC flash socket, and convert them into a steady 60hz. pilotone sync signal in perfect phase with the camera's running speed. This will enable any Super-8 camera to be used in cable-sync mode with a Nagra, or even an unmodified stereo recorder using one of the tracks for the sync signal.
As long as the camera is equipped with a PC flash contact, there are no modifications required to the camera at all. The Converter is normally supplied with a 10' connecting cable for the camera and a short 18" cable to the recorder."

Pilotone to Digital Converter.jpg

[Lunar07]

You can resolve audio with different techniques. Your problem is resolving video. The problem with video is that it may NOT be running at exactly 24 FPS. It may vary up and down. Notice that text states 'unit is designed to accept 24 FPS switch closures.' The problem is that you are NOT assured of that. ****If you are assured of that, then you would not need Pilotone converter and cables to start with, since ANY clean sync signal with a known frequency on one audio track will do fine.****
What is your question exactly: the audio resolving process that you have no idea about?

What I think to do is attached. But I have no idea about the resolving process...

"The unit is designed to accept 24fps switch closures, such as is provided by the camera's PC flash socket, and convert them into a steady 60hz. pilotone sync signal in perfect phase with the camera's running speed. This will enable any Super-8 camera to be used in cable-sync mode with a Nagra, or even an unmodified stereo recorder using one of the tracks for the sync signal.
As long as the camera is equipped with a PC flash contact, there are no modifications required to the camera at all. The Converter is normally supplied with a 10' connecting cable for the camera and a short 18" cable to the recorder."

Pilotone to Digital Converter.jpg

[erkanumut]

You can resolve audio with different techniques. Your problem is resolving video. The problem with video is that it may NOT be running at exactly 24 FPS. It may vary up and down. Notice that text states 'unit is designed to accept 24 FPS switch closures.' The problem is that you are NOT assured of that. ****If you are assured of that, then you would not need Pilotone converter and cables to start with, since ANY clean sync signal with a known frequency on one audio track will do fine.****
What is your question exactly: the audio resolving process that you have no idea about?

First of all, thank you very much for your continuing interest and patience! Secondly, I like to chat these and your replies.

Normally, in the Pilotone method, a camera should not run exactly, that's why we use a cable between camera and recorder, so we transfer the pulses to the recorder according to the camera motor derivations. Finally, after resolving, we get a synced sound with pictures thanks to these signals. Equal picture and sound time. During telecine fixed fps and Hz play a role, that's another story...

I am not sure, whether the same thing happens with PC pulses or not. Well, I will telecine the film at 24fps via a projector, capture to the computer, then the sound with a resolver and capture it. Then I sucked. Nothing will be synced after some time. Right? Say, everything is OK, but how can I resolve the sound from SONY? There will be no controller of the tape speed like in Nagra, etc.

I am in this business nearly for 30 years, I always stop at a point when it comes to f**king sound...

My assistant at the university where I give lectures, who is an editing lecturer told me once, "with today's technology I can sync almost everything with proper software".

Thanks again!

[Lunar07]

Normally, in the Pilotone method, a camera should not run exactly, that's why we use a cable between camera and recorder, so we transfer the pulses to the recorder according to the camera motor derivations.

Yes!

Finally, after resolving, we get a synced sound with pictures thanks to these signals. Equal picture and sound time. During telecine fixed fps and Hz play a role, that's another story...

With such a Pilotone system, for resolving to make any sense and to keep things in Sync, means slaving the visual aide, in this case a projector, to the master pilotone audio signal. The word resolving in such a setup means: Resolving speed of projector to match that of audio RELATIVE to the pilotone audio signal. This point MUST be clear!
It is at THIS stage that you go ahead and transfer your footage AND record your audio AT THE SAME TIME to keep audio synched to video. This point MUST be clear also!

I am not sure, whether the same thing happens with PC pulses or not. Well, I will telecine the film at 24fps via a projector, capture to the computer, then the sound with a resolver and capture it. Then I sucked. Nothing will be synced after some time. Right? Say, everything is OK, but how can I resolve the sound from SONY? There will be no controller of the tape speed like in Nagra, etc.

IF everything is OK by a miracle - you can use software: you capture both tracks from the Sony into a computer. You tell the software what the pilotone frequency is and some other parameters and the software fixes the audio by probing the variation of the Pilotone signal and fixing the recording to fit the parameters. You can use another recorder like the Nagra that allows you to do that directly.
As you mention, if camera is not running at a fixed speed, nothing will be in Sync after a while when you match footage to resolved audio. In which case, see my comment above: In such setups you slave the projector to the pilotone signal AND you transfer video and audio at the same time - this will allow them to be in Sync.

My assistant at the university where I give lectures, who is an editing lecturer told me once, "with today's technology I can sync almost everything with proper software".

Your assistant is making a blanket statement. Some people use a CLAP or any clean reference audio/visual sign to match start of scene in video and audio. They transfer audio and video to a computer, and match the clap point in audio and video, THEN you stretch or shorten the AUDIO to FIT the length duration of VIDEO. And then you hope that things are fine. But then, in such a system you do not need Pilotone or any other sync signal ;)
Also, for what the assistant said to make any sense, you MUST have the big picture in mind of how to do things right. Students are taught a METHODOLOGY of how to do things and how to see the big picture in sync methods. NOT the willy nilly approach of 'software that can sync almost everything to everything.' That may work at times - and at times, you'd waste hours sitting at a computer trying to sync a scene. Needless waste of time.