What is the best reflex Regular 8mm camera?

[Lunar07]

freedom4kids -
It is hard to come up with R8 cameras that go with your specs.
Does it have to be reflex? I do not see why.
Two cameras that can be looked at - they are not reflex cameras but they have a d-mount, they are protable, and they are well built:
1. Bolex C8, and B8
2. Carena Gevaert (one d-mount)

These can be easily found.
I have one Carena Gevaert that I can send you and you can look at. These are beautiful cameras.

[Shanec8mm]

freedom4kids -
It is hard to come up with R8 cameras that go with your specs.
Does it have to be reflex? I do not see why.
Two cameras that can be looked at - they are not reflex cameras but they have a d-mount, they are protable, and they are well built:
1. Bolex C8, and B8
2. Carena Gevaert (one d-mount)

These can be easily found.
I have one Carena Gevaert that I can send you and you can look at. These are beautiful cameras.

Lunar07,
Good recommendations here. In an earlier thread I was rambling on and on about the Bolex K2. I had forgotten about the Bolex B8. Great camera! I have one but have never used it. As you mentioned they are well built. Those 2 models may fit his needs.

[Shanec8mm]

Lunar07,
I just did a search on the Carena Gevaert camera you mentioned here. Very fascinating camera design.

[joelpierre]

Carena Zoomex II

http://home.scarlet.be/stef49/Collectio ... ex_II.html

[joelpierre]

Leicina 8 :

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wik ... ilmkameras

[Nicholas Kovats]

Steve of bolexrepair.com has been kind enough to provide detailed analysis specifically of the potential suitability of the Bolex P1 for UP8 conversion.

It appears the interior cavity is too small for the required work regarding replacing the 8mm shutter with a 16mm equivalent. The reflex viewing requirement was also dropped. 16mm Octameter is a suitable alternative to provide 16mm field of view. Please excuse the length of this posting but Steve has granted permission to reproduce our interchange and his analysis.

I appreciate the postings of beautiful R8 cameras but they also share...at first glance similar UP8 design issues as per the P1 analysis. At the moment the Bolex H8/H16 camera systems remain the defacto standard for UP8 conversions, i.e.

1. 8/16mm parts/transport/optics interchangeability.
2. global availability of above.
3. The only custom machining/milling required is the H8 gate.

To review there are multiple candidates for Bolex UP8 conversion , i.e.

1. reflex H8/H16
2. non-reflex H8/H16
3. jkcamara H8 DS8 conversion.

Cheers!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nicholas Kovats <nkovats@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: Regarding your Bolex Double/Regular 8 camera services.
To: sales <sales@bolexrepair.com>

Hi Steve.

I appreciate the reply and I admire the depth of specific Bolex 8mm
camera information you have posted.

I have several queries...
.
.
.

Could the Bolex P1 reflex be a suitable candidate for potential UP8
conversion? I foresee the following design criteria, i.e.

1. Lighter than current H8 UP8 conversions (6-7lbs).
2. 25 ft run.
3. 24 fps.
4. Reflex viewing.

Could the P1 be modified with the following? i.e.

1. Replace the unidentified threaded lens mount with a 16mm C Mount.
2. Increase the 8mm aperture behind the lens mount to 16mm width.
3. Replace 8mm reflex viewfinder optics with 16mm field of view.
4. If 8mm reflex viewfinder conversion is not possible utilize 16mm
Octameter (parrallax viewer).
5. Mill the current gate to 10.75mm x 3.75mm UP8 dimensions.

At the moment I see the 8mm reflex viewfinder conversion to 16mm field
of view as the greatest potential hurdle. The pre-existing conversions
of Bolex H8/H16 cameras are my professional preference. But I would
like to accelerate UP8 uptake and popularity. I am also intrigued by
the possibility of a sub-2 pound UP8 camera.

Regards,

Nicholas Kovats
Toronto, Canada

---

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: sales <sales@bolexrepair.com>
Date: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Regarding your Bolex Double/Regular 8 camera services.
To: Nicholas Kovats <nkovats@gmail.com>

Nicholas,

I looked at the parts involved and put my answers below your questions.


Could the P1 be modified with the following? i.e.

1. Replace the unidentified threaded lens mount with a 16mm C Mount.

ANS:

The diameter of the opening where the lens passes through the front mounting plate is approximately 1.140". Somewhat larger than the 1" used for C-mount lens. The thickness of the front plate at the opening is machined out to approximately .060 - .070". About 2 full threads of a C-mount (32 DPI). You would have to build up the aluminum plate before threading. Heat would probably warp it, so a new plate would be the most practical approach or perhaps a secondary adapter plate attached to the P-1 plate. That would increase the flange-to-film distance so the adapter would have to be designed to compensate.

2. Increase the 8mm aperture behind the lens mount to 16mm width.

ANS:

The shutter assembly has a reflex mirror passing by a circular hole in the shutter plate. Elongating the hole, left to right, would remove part of the mirror slide opening support of the mirror assembly. This opening is normally approximately .300" in diameter. Also the reflex mirror is mounted at a slight angle below the hole. There is a screw mount (1of 4) holding down the shutter mirror slide. The screw's position may interfere with the image. Remove the screw for clearance may render the shutter guide/mirror, unstable.

3. Replace 8mm reflex viewfinder optics with 16mm field of view.

ANS:

Removing the original Pan Cinor lens will also remove part of the reflex optics. They are matched to additional optics in the P-1 case. No more reflex viewfinder. You could use a Pan Cinor reflex for a 16mm model. The Pan Cinor Reflex optics are external in this lens.

4. If 8mm reflex viewfinder conversion is not possible utilize 16mm Octameter (parallax viewer).

ANS:

Yes, this would work


5. Mill the current gate to 10.75mm x 3.75mm UP8 dimensions.


ANS:

The gate itself can ONLY be enlarged (without other modifications) in one direction. The other direction would place part of the new opening underneath the shutter. You could trim the shutter blades to allow the image to pass through, however.

The shutter itself has dimensions that covers the hole completely when operating. And just barely. If the hole is elongated in both lateral directions, the shutter will no longer cover the gate opening. The gate is approximately .200" wide. Increase the side to double original size, approximately +.100" would need to be removed from each side. On the side closest to the center of the shutter, .100" would remove 95% of the films support of the right side of the film path. On the other side the shutter would not be able to cover the gate. You would need a larger diameter shutter. This is not possible as the shutter sits inside of a shallow machined depression. If you Machined the depression larger to compensate, and made a larger shutter blades, the tips would then hit the either of 2 supporting posts that hold the shutter assembly in place.

OBSERVATION

The H8 / H16 mixed parts approach works as the H8 is derived from the H16 model. The gate needed only to be made smaller and the flange distance change, claw pull down stroke, etc, redone. Easy enough to do. With the P-1, you don't have any space to work with. Is it possible? Perhaps, but a quick look says no.

Sincerely,

Steve

----

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nicholas Kovats <nkovats@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Regarding your Bolex Double/Regular 8 camera services.
To: sales <sales@bolexrepair.com>


Hi Steve,

I appreciate your detailed response and analysis of potential UP8
conversion of the Bolex P1 Reflex 8mm camera.

So in brief,

1. 16mm C-Mount possible.
2. Reflex viewing no but 16mm Octometer or Reflex "Dog-ear" zoom would work.
3. Interior spacing too small to inset H16mm or machined shutter which
will hit current 2x shutter assembly support posts.
4. The current 2x shutter assembly support posts negate the 10.75mm x
3.75mm gate dimensions.

Are they any Bolex R8mm models with enough interior cavity to work
with relative to 16mm wide shutter and UP8 gate dimensions?

Regards,

Nicholas Kovats

---

On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Nicholas Kovats <nkovats@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Steve,

I was not referring to the H8 Regular 8 series but the following cameras, i.e.

1. C-8SL
2. B-8SL
3. D-8L
4. D-8LA
5. B-8LA
6. C-8LA
7. K1 AUTOMATIC
8. K2 AUTOMATIC
9. S1 AUTOMATIC
10. P4 AUTOMATIC

It appears that the K series of cameras have larger interior cavities.

Regards,

Nicholas

---

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: sales <sales@bolexrepair.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Regarding your Bolex Double/Regular 8 camera services.
To: Nicholas Kovats <nkovats@gmail.com>


Nicholas,

Oops. Sorry for the error

The shutter are all the same size for these models. And Bolex is known for using the same basic design (and many, many interchangeable parts) on just about every 8mm model:  B, C, D, P1,2,3, etc.

I would guess that the same problems would apply. Not 100% sure, though.  I don't have any K, S or P4 series parts or bodies in stock. They are somewhat more complicated to repair and NOT popular at all.

The K series is a slightly larger camera, however, the lens appears to be much the same as the P2 series. I would also guess that the shutter area in the K, S or P4 series cameras are just a cramped as the P1-2-3 series.

Steve

[retrogrouch]

Wow Nicholas, Thanks for sharing this! I think I am going to read this post about a thousand times to try and digest it all.

I really like your Idea of a very small high quality UP8 model. How do you envision using this camera? By this I mean will it fit the same niche as the camera that it is going to be built from? I love 8mm because of It's implied intimacy. Establishing shot, then medium, CU, all shot in the action. Hand held. As time goes on, I find that finding solutions to tele are not too hard, but W/A with 8mm seems tough. I suppose what I am getting at, as a consumer of 8mm, if I had to sacrifice something on a small camera, I would take W/A and good wide open over interchangable. That's just me.

Thanks for starting this thread, I have really enjoyed seeing all the neat stuff ( nessies?)

Cheers

RG

[Nicholas Kovats]

Hi Retro,

My preference is for sharing raw data to enlist like minded souls to help shift small format use towards UP8. Hence the temporary push downwards towards a sub 2 lb UP camera w/ 25 ft film load, i.e. approx. 1m 15s of high quality ultrawide source material a la film.

Steve has politely declined additional investigations but this post could serve as a reference for a proper examination of the slightly larger, boxier Bolex K1, K2, S1, P4 cameras.

With apologies to Mae West.

""Is that an UP8 cam in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"

[retrogrouch]

I hearya on that one. I spent years whitling down my still camera kit bag, in an attempt to not be a "kit hog". I just upgraded to an H8, and although I love it, when I opened the box, I realized I had done it again. Bigger gear= Bigger hassels.

Back to topic, would some of the very small 16mms work? I have a Mayfair 16, that unfortunately is a magazine camera, but I think that their are similar models that take 25' foot reels. Their was some cross over to 8mm, so maybe a gate that can be machined up can be had, something could be bonded to the 16mm gate. Mine seems very well built, and has a nice art deco look, and it only weighs 1 3/4 lb, and is quite slim. Non reflex= brighter viewfinder, more light on the film and easier metering. One problem though, it only runs at 18fps. Non too bad if you doing MOS "pocket work". I pirated the lens long ago, but it's mint, and a 2 lens c mount if you want it to dissect it. It would be a privilege to donate it's body to science.

Also, I remember seeing a late model 16mm gun /air recon camera that was tiny, and electric. I saw it at a Junkman,s whom is also a cinematography guy. I could try and track it down for some pics.

RG

[Nicholas Kovats]

Retro,

I agree that smaller 16mm non-reflex cams are worthwhile pursuing. However this angle of pursuit requires an 8mm pulldown modification and 8mm sprockets. This is where it starts to get expensive unlike the Bolex system interchangeable manufacturing design.

At this time the only other similar R8/16mm interchangeability design I have found is the Fastax line of 35/16/8 high speed cameras form the Fifties. Very heavy but utterly fascinating. At the moment I can't seem to locate a 1950's product line catalog that detailed the various models, i.e.

Fastax 8mm -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-High-Sp ... 0340480749
fastax 16mm -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wollensak-WF-4T ... 625wt_1187

He got his working, i.e. http://owyheesound.com/fastax.html

But not exactly portable.

[Lunar07]

Lunar07,
I just did a search on the Carena Gevaert camera you mentioned here. Very fascinating camera design.

Yes it is! But as the other posts mention - there is the trouble with the shutter that would affect these and other 8mm cameras.
For now, it seems that H-8 RX4 is the only candidate. Which is OK with me.
I usually use a B8LA or the C8LA with the Bolex anamorphot which is portable enough for me
However, the developers of the portable ultrapan8 camera should focus on one or two models: I would go with Bolex K2 and/or Carena Zoomex S, then invest their energy in finding out how do the redesign that surmounts the inherent difficulty of making them in ultrapan8.

[Lunar07]

You have a B8 and you have not used it? This is blasphemy
The world of d-mount lenses is a world unto itself. Get a D-mount to C-mount lens adapter and you can use a whole class of lenses with the B8. I have a full set of Dallmeyer lenses that I always use with the B8LA and C8LA cameras that I have.

freedom4kids -
It is hard to come up with R8 cameras that go with your specs.
Does it have to be reflex? I do not see why.
Two cameras that can be looked at - they are not reflex cameras but they have a d-mount, they are protable, and they are well built:
1. Bolex C8, and B8
2. Carena Gevaert (one d-mount)

These can be easily found.
I have one Carena Gevaert that I can send you and you can look at. These are beautiful cameras.

Lunar07,
Good recommendations here. In an earlier thread I was rambling on and on about the Bolex K2. I had forgotten about the Bolex B8. Great camera! I have one but have never used it. As you mentioned they are well built. Those 2 models may fit his needs.

[Nicholas Kovats]

For now, it seems that H-8 RX4 is the only candidate. Which is OK with me.
I usually use a B8LA or the C8LA with the Bolex anamorphot which is portable enough for me
However, the developers of the portable ultrapan8 camera should focus on one or two models: I would go with Bolex K2 and/or Carena Zoomex S, then invest their energy in finding out how do the redesign that surmounts the inherent difficulty of making them in ultrapan8.

Incorrect, Lunar.

Whilst the H8 Rex 4 might be the latest and most coveted model to utilize for UP8 transport there are numerous H8 possibilities. From the excellent http://www.bolexcollector.com/cameras.html, i.e.

Non-reflex:
1947 H8 Leader Double 8mm
1949 H8 Standard Double 8mm
1950 H8 Deluxe Double 8mm
1958 H8T Double 8mm

Reflex:
1962 H8 REX Double 8mm
1963 H8S Double 8mm
1964 H8 REX3 Double 8mm
1965 H8 REX4 Double 8mm

In a diminishing film user market it is prohibitive and not very cost effective to invest in extensive retooling of the K2 or Carena. Hence the emphasis on recycling interchangeable components.

There are a few specific 16mm reflex cameras worth converting to UP8 but they are exceptional and in the pre-discussion stage. And dependent on the availability of funds.

[retrogrouch]

[quote="freedom4kids"]Retro,

I agree that smaller 16mm non-reflex cams are worthwhile pursuing. However this angle of pursuit requires an 8mm pulldown modification and 8mm sprockets. This is where it starts to get expensive unlike the Bolex system interchangeable manufacturing design.

At this time the only other similar R8/16mm interchangeability design I have found is the Fastax line of 35/16/8 high speed cameras form the Fifties. Very heavy but utterly fascinating. At the moment I can't seem to locate a 1950's product line catalog that detailed the various models, i.e.

Fastax 8mm -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-High-Sp ... 0340480749
fastax 16mm -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wollensak-WF-4T ... 625wt_1187

He got his working, i.e. http://owyheesound.com/fastax.html

Thanks for sharing that cool site. Those wacky kids are up to some cool stuff. Any time I see camera equipment made of wood, you know there is some pioneering going on. The fastax is an interesting machine. looks like it was salvaged off of the USS New Jersey. I wonder f that rotating crystal makes individual frames, or one big long set of dissolves, like an editor, or a tc20.

Too bad about your UP8 derringer idea. Part of me still thinks that there is a 8mm/16mm combo out there, at the very beginning of 8mm were the company just did the cheapest conversion they could. KInda like the keystone As and Ks. Cool idea, anyway.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Retro,

Can you provide more detail regarding the Keystone A/K camera systems?

Cheers!

NK