Bolex H-8 Spindle Adapter Needed

[Lunar07]

Hi all -
I removed the two H-8 spindle adapters to place them on a newer H-8 camera that I got. Somehow I managed to LOSE one of them I looked and looked and can not find it. These are the adapters that allow the use of 16mm 100ft (square spindle) spools on the H-8 round spindle. Does any one have an adapter they are willing to sell? I'll buy it.
Thanks!

[Nicholas Kovats]

Hi lunar.

I just ordered a pair of H8 round to square spindle adapters for my UltraPan8 Bolex so I may utilize 100ft 16mm daylight spools from Jaakko <jpkurhi@att.net> of www.jkcamera.com. Apparently these are stock items, i.e. pair of H8 spindle adapter(s) at $22.50 + S/H $8 = $30.50 US (Total Cost).

Cheers!

[Lunar07]

SUPER and much thanks! I just called him and ordered one of these. This was a life saver. Strange that he does not have it on his web site so Google did not return his web site when I searched for this item.
Now the next logical question What is an UltraPan8 Bolex? some kind of a converted Non-Rex Bolex H-8? Can you give me some info on this like the new aspect ratio, who does such a conversion etc....
I have but abandoned Super8 into anamorphic R8 so something like UltraPan8 Bolex made me curious now!
Searching for UltraPan8, it looks like you are utilizing an H-8 camera and R8 film but with the viewer and optics of an H-16. Are you using a Non-Rex H-8 for this with D-mount lenses? Or an H-8 Rex with C-mount H-8 Rex lenses? Your posts on the subject are not clear on this isse.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Your welcome Lunar.

From what I gather Jaakko has not updated his web site in years. And the spindles were actually a referral from Dieter of Bolex USA/Procam.

UltraPan8 is native spherical Ultrapan8 system with aspect ratio = 2:8:1. Wider than Cinemascope 2:4:1. Utilizes the entire 16mm width of Regular 8 film. Standard 16mm optics cover the entire frame optically centered. Viewfinder is native UltraPan8 w/ mask for CinemaScope. Double the run time relative to 16mm film, i.e. 80x UltraPan8 frames per 16mm foot as opposed to 40x standard 16mm frames. 90-100% increase in imaging area relative to Super 8/Regular 8mm. Much cheaper than Super 16 conversion, i.e.

http://vimeo.com/27905787

An UltraPan8 camera is a hybrid of both a Bolex H8 and H16. In my case I supplied a H16 Rex 4 (reflex) to Jean-Louis Seguin which was "straight" swapped for a stock H8 Rex 4 (reflex). This is the 2nd least most expensive conversion. The cheapest involves supplying both.

Apparently it is much more involved if your were to modify the inverse, i.e. H16 body with H8 transport. That is the most expensive.

He then utilized my H16 optics (viewfinder), widened the H8 aperture to 16mm dimensions and milled the stock H8 gate to 10.52mm x 3.75mm. This effectively utilizes the entire 16mm width of 2 perf Regular 8.

In fact Jaakko's Double Super 8 converted Bolex H8 camera's can also be converted to UltraPan8 format. But Regular 8 film stock is more plentiful then the increasingly rare Doubler Super 8 film.

UltraPan8 film projectors do not exist. Sprocketless 16mm transfer bays are utilized to transfer UltraPan8 film whether R8 based or potentially DS8.

It is becoming increasingly evident that I need to create an UltraPan8 website.

Cheers!

[Lunar07]

Why do I feel that I am about to succumb into another 8mm adventure that will cost me money, but this looks like 8mm fun
-- So let us see, you supplied the H-16 Rex 4 camera and he used an H-8 Rex 4 to do the conversion of the H-8 Rex. Then he sent you the modified H-8 Rex 4. Right? (or you can supply both and receive a modified H-8 Rex 4)
-- In this case, what lenses do you use? They have to be C-mount RX lenses. Right? But C-mount H-8 Rex lenses or the H-16 Rex lenses? This is where your comments are not clear. I am assuming you have to use the H-8 Rex specific lenses (including the Switar 8mm-36mm Zoom lens made for the H-8 Rex), because the H-16 RX lenses do not work on the H-8 Rex (unless the modification is making a correction for this that allows you to use H-16 RX lenses). But would these H-8 RX lenses cover the whole entire new frame area?
-- Personally, I think 2.8:1 is a bit extreme. Is it possible to do the conversion for an aspect ratio of 2:1 (equivalent to an anamorphic factor of 1.5x which I work with).

-- This sounds very neat. Hope you can find the time to work on a web site for this format.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Correct. I received a hybrid Bolex Ultrapan8 camera utilizing a modified H8 body/film transport and H16 optics.

I am not utilizing specific RX C-Mount lenses but the following, i.e.

1. Generic Fujica 75mm CCTV lens
2. SOM Berthiot 25mm

But I did examine a gorgeous 5.9mm retrofocus Angenieux at LIFT here in Toronto coupled with a Arri-S to C mount adapter and I must admit I was blown away. Minimal distortion and very, very wide. Over the next few months I aim to rent such lenses for additional testing. They also just purchased some Zeiss CP.2 lenses.

Remember that UltraPan8 is an optically centered format so it uses the best part of standard 16mm optics...the center. To put it plainly.

Which answers your next question. The specific 8mm optics of the Bolex H8 camera cannot and do not provide lateral coverage of the 10.75mm width of UltraPan8.

Jaakko of JKCamera can apparently modify the internal optics of the specific R8mm format H8 lenses to cover the slightly larger Super 8 frame in his famous Double Super 8 H8 conversions. But I very much doubt that they can be modified to cover the width of the standard 16mm frame as utilized by UltraPan8.
Apparently his converted H8 5.5mm lenses will vignette at certain apertures on his DS8 camera.

I hope you can now appreciate the voluminous examples of standard 16mm optics available for use with this format.

The ultra-wide aspect ratio exemplifies the design intent of maximizing the resolution potential of the almost 100% increase in "imaging" area relative to standard R8/Super 8 filmmaking. And allowing digital extraction to whatever aspect ratio a filmmaker may choose.

I believe in maximizing the original information "input".

[Lunar07]

Ok! I am sold. This really sounds good. This is encompassing the whole width of the film area so one can always shoot in 2.8:1 and crop if need arises.
So you can use the wide range of C-mount lenses. Cool!
I already sent a PM to Jean-Louise on this.
---- One more question for you: Does the conversion increase the 8mm horizontal field of view only (as is the case with anamorphic compression) OR BOTH the horizontal and vertical? I guess my question is the same as: What counts as a standard NORMAL focal length in UltraPan8 (taking the height of the vertical)? If the conversion increases only the horizontal, then I guess C-mount 10mm-13mm range still counts as Normal as with d-mount R8 since the conversion widens it to 10.52mmx3.75mm.

I have an H8-Rex DS8, and the Switar 5.5mm that was modified for this camera does not vignette at all. I got this lens long ago for $35 hehehehe.
But the potential of UltraPan8 is greater. This thing was either not advertised fully or I was not paying attention. This is much better than DS8 and even 16mm filming.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Great that you made contact with Jean-Louis.

Comparing UltraPan8 and standard 8mm frame dimensions, i.e.

1. UP8 = 10.52mm(w) x 3.75mm(v)
2. *R8 = 4.5mm(w) x 3.3mm(h)

*Source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:8mm_a ... ouble8.png

Indicates a vertical increase of 12% relative to R8 frame height. Plus the increased vertical dimension.

In fact I have been modest in my postings regarding the actual percentage increase relative to both S8 + R8 formats, i.e.

1. UP8 = 10.52mm(w) x 3.75mm(v) = 39.45 sq. mm
2. *R8 = 4.50mm(w) x 3.30mm(h) = 14.85 sq.mm
3. *S8 = 5.79mm(w) x 4.01mm(h) = 23.21 sq.mm

UltraPan8 is actually an increase of 166% and 70% in square imaging area relative to R8 and S8 respectively.

I do not know what constitutes a standard UltraPan8 focal length.

I stand corrected on the modified H8 5.5mm Switar for your DS8 camera. I believe I had inverted the actual situation, i.e. utilizing an unmodified H8 5.5mm optic would result in vignetting on a DS8 Bolex camera.

It's great to see your realization of it's potential. I suspect I am still at the understated simplicity stage.

[bolextech]

1. UP8 = 10.52mm(w) x 3.75mm(v)
2. *R8 = 4.5mm(w) x 3.3mm(h)

*Source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:8mm_a ... ouble8.png

Indicates a vertical increase of 12% relative to R8 frame height. Plus the increased vertical dimension.

Hi Nicholas,

I would be suspicious about any format dimensions found on Wikipedia. They are often wrong. Mostly well intentioned contributors mix up camera negative areas and projected areas.

Oddly, the German Wikipedia lists this: 4.9mm x 3.6mm

Another site has 4.8mm x 3.6mm, rounded off.

Yet another site has 4.88mm x 3.68mm.

These all seem about right.

There is no real increase in frame height in a UltraPan8 modification.
Even if you eliminate the frame line completely, vertical gain is negligible.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis

[Lunar07]

Ok! This means a Normal lens for UltraPan8 is the same for R8 - in the range of focal lengths 10mm-13mm. I prefer 10mm for R8. Starting with aspect ratio 1.33:1 and up, I take only the vertical field of view to determine the Normal.

[Nicholas Kovats]

I found a posting regarding a German link that appears to be based on the actual R8/S8 SMPTE camera apertures, i.e.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22099&p=198399&hili ... mm#p198399 which references the graphic file specifying the actual dimensions, i.e. download/file.php?id=89

"Regular-8 4.80 x 3.81 millimeters = 18.29 sq mm
Super-8 5.69 x 4.23 millimeters = 24.07 sq mm"

And also the late John Pytlak's posting regarding the specific SMPTE standards for projectable R8/S8 image area,i.e.

viewtopic.php?t=10972

"Regular-8 4.37 x 3.30 millimeters (SMPTE 234) = 14.42 sq mm
Super-8 5.31 x 4.01 millimeters (SMPTE 154) = 21.29 sq mm"

I recalculated the percentage increase in imaging area relative to the known dimensions of the UltraPan8 camera aperture, i.e

UP8 = 10.52mm(w) x 3.75mm(v) = 39.45 sq. mm

And recalculated the percentages relative to respective R8/S8 camera aperture(s):
R8 = 4.80mm(w) x 3.81mm(h) = 18.29 sq.mm -> 117%
S8 = 5.69mm(w) x 4.23mm(h) = 24.07 sq.mm -> 39%

A notable decrease in my original calculations based on Wikipedia data but nevertheless a significant increase in total camera aperture imaging area.

[Lunar07]

Freedom4kids wrote:
"But I did examine a gorgeous 5.9mm retrofocus Angenieux at LIFT here in Toronto coupled with a Arri-S to C mount adapter and I must admit I was blown away. Minimal distortion and very, very wide. Over the next few months I aim to rent such lenses for additional testing. They also just purchased some Zeiss CP.2 lenses."

Yes, the wide angle lens for this format can be a real issue 16mm lenses in the range of 5mm-7mm are not common or cheap.
Another way of doing it is to use the Century Optics 6mm wide angle attachment for the Switar 10mm lens. This attachment works on both styles of the Switar 10mm: The older 32mm filter thread lens, and the newer 38mm filter thread pre-set lens. The attachment screws into the pre-set lens, Century Optics has a 32mm-38mm ring to allow attachment to go with the older style Switar.
These attachments can be found on eBay. I got one last year for a mere $70 along with the step ring.

[Nicholas Kovats]

Lunar,

Can you please clarify what you mean by "...the wide angle lens for this format can be a real issue."

Are you referring to price or optical quality?

[swaschka]

sorry to jump in but i have an 8mm rex late model 212838. i am interested in making the conversion. im fairly proficient at repairing bolexs. and i understand the basic different configurations. so for an h8 this is a film gate mill and an optics shift. gate milling is not bad with a precision milling machine. but the optics shift... not sure how that works with the viewfinder. i guess the prisms are essentially just paint masked and you can move the periscope prism and adjust the top finder mirror. anyways... my struggle is usage of 8mm today. its inexpensive, but the detail is lacking a bit. obviously. so ive shot some anamorphic. pretty dang nice for small gauge. but the rig is so flipping stupid big that i might as well shoot a mag loaded 16 and not worry about changing film in the light. i would love to get the equivalent of 8mm anamorphic without the huge rig and run the spring motor handheld. freedom! then there's the 3 perfect condition switars that will go to waste. but ive got a pan-cinor that rarely comes off anyways. so... whos scanning the negatives? will any sproketless tcs do this or are we talking about one guy with the machine to do it?

[swaschka]

ofcourse then theres the other route which is ill trade a cherry h8 rex for a cherry h16 rex or better still an m if you guys want to cut your conversion cost. ive been considering a pl adapter and a spendy anamorphic prime for a handheld.