What are good 16mm projectors to look for?

[slashmaster]

I've had one of the newer bell and howell's but didn't like it that much because it had too many autoload parts that scratched film and the lens wouldn't give an image sharp enough for me. I heard Eiki's will give a sharper picture but how well do they treat the film? What about Elmo? How about this Telex? http://www.icecostore.com/servlet/the-5 ... -AR/Detail It looks like it treats the film right but how sharp of an image does it get? I'm wondering if some of the oldest manual load sound projectors might be right for me but how hard is it to maintain the tube amps?

[bolextech]

In the University where I work, we have used mostly Elmo 16CL for years and I would say it is one of the safest on film. Plus, the channel loading feature makes it a snap to remove film in mid-roll.

Cheers,
Jean-Louis

[Davideo]

I use primarily EIKI slot load projectors. Easy on film and manual loading. Easy to pull out film in middle of reel as opposed to "film chopping" autoloads.

[David M. Leugers]

So called conventional wisdom in the 16mm field seems to go like this: buy an Elmo or Eiki, never use a cleaner on your films, never store your films in cans.
I have seen and heard this so many times I don't think a lot of thought is being given the subject. There is nothing wrong with owning an Elmo or Eiki if that is your preference. They do nothing for me and the much vaulted, almost sacred Elmo has lots of problems, actually much more so than the Bell and Howell. I am a died-in-the-wool manual load kinda guy who's main machine is a B+H JAN. I also treasure the arc Kalart/Victor machines I own. After over 35 years of hearing and reading all the horrors of the "auto-shredder" Bell and Howell projectors, I bought a new 2585 from ICECO in Miami. It is simply an amazing machine. It auto loads every time, runs like a fine watch and will easily run through films that choke most other projectors. Super steady image and wonderful sound with a strong amp. Contrary to "conventional wisdom" it is super gentile on film (the swing out gate is a joy for cleaning). What's the deal? It is all in the use of proper film leader. I have only used Kodak leader on my films from the beginning. You have to have a proper leader and trimmed properly for the auto load to work. Loaded properly, the film does not rub against any of the auto load mechanism (even if it does it will not scratch the film if it is cleaned regularly). I think it has the best take-up design around. The lens size has the most selection of lenses of any. If you think your image is not sharp, get a better lens. The achilles heel of the B+H is the worm gear, but if you get one with the new style black worm gear it should outlast you. Other than that, it is a bona-fide contender for a suitable projector. I'm keeping mine. BTW, most films you find for sale are far, far more likely to suffer from being dried out, shrunken, curled messes that won't take up properly and they are dirty beyond belief. Yeah, but they don't suffer from vinegar syndrome... give me a break. A ruined film is a ruined film, who cares the reason why? My money, always attach Kodak head and tail leaders, clean and lube films regularly, store on good reels and in cans. If VS is detected, then store separated from other films without a can.

[slashmaster]

Thanks for the replies, especially you David M. Yeah I was just looking at this ebay showing the variation of all the newer B & H's. http://cgi.ebay.com/16mm-PARTS-PROJECTO ... 3281415734 It looks like the 2585 is a little better than what I had. I think I had the 1590 with that jump ramp just before the take up reel. Yours is one less place for a problem. I guess all sound projectors have flywheels the film goes over the exact same way as the B & H's right? I made mine so I could bypass it for silent films so thats one bright side for the B & H. So you say if I don't like the lens just get a better one? Are all lenses for 16mm projectors interchangeable?

Oh yeah, look at the slot load projectors in that lot. I wonder how well they compare to a 2585?

Thanks Bolextech, thanks Davideo. I really want to see an Elmo or Eiki in person. Do you guys know if any of those models fast forward or fast reverse?

[Patrick]

I have three 16mm projectors. The reason I have this number is that I am on a quest to obtain a good, reliable 16mm projector and unfortunately I still have not found it. All three projectors have issues.

The first 16mm projector that I purchased was an Eiki auto load projector. Overall, it's a nice, well made machine. However, the auto loading feature tends to scrunch the film leader up and it can take several attempts for the film leader to get a good clean run. The other issue is the rubber belts inside the arms keep breaking on a semi-regular basis which is a real nuisance.

Next, I purchased a Singer slot load but found that machine pretty crude and clunky and poorly designed. The film path is hidden from view during projection so that you can't see immediately if something has gone wrong with the film. Unlike the Eiki, it doesn't automatically adjust when you've lost a loop during a broken perf etc. To correct for this, you have to manually hold down a lever but that only works about half the time. When I bought it, the lamp only lasted a few days. I bought a replacement lamp for it but when it was inserted, there was no light output. It's been that way ever since.

I also bought a Bell & Howell manual loading projector for a cheap price. It runs mostly fine but the picture appears a little unsteady at times. It is also an extremely noisy machine - really, really loud. And there is some issue with the audio. The sound quality is very poor. Listening to a film's musical soundtrack is awful. And dialogue is hard to understand.

[slashmaster]

Thanks Patrick, Tell me something, I know the bell and Howell has a 3 finger claw, how many fingers do the eiki and singer have? Can you slot load the Eiki? If so I would just spin the leader onto the take up and slot load it. Does the Eiki or singer go at any other speed than 24?

[Patrick]

From memory, I think there could have been some semi-automatic way of loading that Eiki projector, according to the seller. Though the Eiki also developed a problem later on. Sort of like the equivalent of a human hiccup. It wouldn't happen with all films but with some, it would make this sudden noise and there would be a simultaneous jerk (or jump) in the picture. And as the film progressed, these 'hiccups' would be become more and more frequent.

I don't have the projectors with me at the moment to examine the claws. They're in storage over on the mainland. It's been ages since Ive run them. Would be great to project a 16mm film again...I just wish I had a reliable projector to do such a thing!

Edit: Oh man, at the last camera fair I went to, there was a guy selling an earlier model 16mm Bell & Howell projector for real cheap because he didn't want to bring it back in his car at the end of the day (he had a lot of other stuff to bring back too.) I really regret not taking it but I had no car myself and was walking home with a large format view camera that I had bought at the same market. Lugging a view camera back home is one thing but I don't think I could manage a 16mm projector in my other hand.

[David M. Leugers]

The B+H slot loads are not as well thought of by most users. I would stay away from them if seeking the best, although they do have users who like them.

The B+H 3 claw is certainly one of its best features and central to its being able to handle films with perf problems that other projectors can not handle.

Any discussion of 16mm projectors must be framed by experiences with properly serviced units. Any projector make can have problems.

Most projectors available for sale are in dire need of TLC (proper servicing). After 30 to 60 years of use, abuse and neglect, expect it. Viewing long term
a projector make that is readily adjusted and serviced with a good solid supply of parts will be a winner. The B+H 2500 series (and earlier 1500 series) projectors fit the bill with a better network of parts and servicing technicians out there than any other make. Just something to consider.

Note: I know there are a lot of B+H 500 series projectors out there, but they are way too noisy for my taste. My 2585 is very quiet and smooth running. B+H made a big deal when bringing out the 1500 series projector how they had quieted the machine down from the 500 series and the 2500 seems more so.

Just about any 16mm projector (certainly any of the more common makes) if properly serviced will project any film that is in excellent shape with good results. IF you want to project 16mm film, no matter what make you buy, spend the money on making sure you have a well maintained properly functioning unit.

[Will2]

I bought one of these from this guy in Miami, Fl and love it. It was brand new when I got it with extra bulb, instructions. It's design is simple and avoids any autoload features that can destroy film when not working properly.

16mm Projector

[David M. Leugers]

Will the Grayflex/Singer/Telex projector you got is one of the most under rated projectors around. I owned one for twenty years and it was still working when I sold it. While it won't win any awards for design beauty, it delivers the goods.
One of the most reliable projectors out there. One well respected projector tech uses them to show films at events because he says he can always count on them. Maybe the ideal projector for a first purchase?

[slashmaster]

Nice! How many fingers does the claw have on a Telex? Does it have one of those spinning knobs that comes out so you can view films frame by frame?

[IShootR8]

I've had one of the newer bell and howell's but didn't like it that much because it had too many autoload parts that scratched film and the lens wouldn't give an image sharp enough for me. I heard Eiki's will give a sharper picture but how well do they treat the film? What about Elmo? How about this Telex? http://www.icecostore.com/servlet/the-5 ... -AR/Detail It looks like it treats the film right but how sharp of an image does it get? I'm wondering if some of the oldest manual load sound projectors might be right for me but how hard is it to maintain the tube amps?

I bought one of those Telex projectors off ebay a while back and I'm very happy with it.