Do films become darker over the years?

[rweilert]

Well, I'm half scared :? and half I know that this doesn't happen... Maybe our view on things has changed with upcoming flatscreen technologies?

Let me explain:

After having some encouraging threads over the summer holidays here in this forum, I walked down to the cellar last weekend and picked up some of my old R8 and S8 films, two projectors, as well as the one and only 16 mm film I ever made and the 16 mm projector I have.

Very surprised we were (my wife and I) when we watched the R8 films: They seemed to be taken by night, white parts (clouds...) were somewhat reddish-pink, contrast dull. Too few light from the projector? The other one wasn't brighter. Only placing the projector 1 m from the screen and keeping the picture on A4 size came out ok. Sharpness was weak, too. Too bad lenses?

The projectors were a Bolex 16-3 and a - well, unknown make, but sound and Super/Standard 8.

We watched one Super 8 film which was slightly better to view. But maybe only our eyes had accepted the impression then.

Then we watched 16 mm. Instead of a great revelation, this turned out just to be as good as we had expected the 8 mm films to be: clear colours, good contrast, acceptable brightness, sharpness on regular TV level (but not more).

So, did I just remember wrong, or can the films darken over the years or can the projectors (maybe the lamps?) loosen some brightness? Or was (is) the quality of 8 mm really so bad? This is really strange - I remember my family watching my films in the living room, the projector about 3 - 4 meters away from the screen, and we found it ok. Are our eyes so much pampered today?

Just tell me what you think.

Rolf

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

I´m pretty sure old films can darken over the years. It depends in the emulsion and storage, and of course how old they are. I have seen many films with a bright "shine" around the bright parts of the image, and the dark parts were very dark.

You really should digitalise your old films, the degradation will not stop. The quality will get worse each year that passes. How quickly they will "go bad" depends on the emulsion. Kodachrome is the best. Agfa, Geavert and Ferrania among the worst, they turn reddish. And I mean the whole image from dark to bright parts, I have seen many Geavert that go from pink to red (all other colors have faded).

[71er]

Hi Rolf!
Maybe your storage conditions were bad for the film; I've got standard 8 footage of my grandparents from about 55 years ago that is still in perfect condition. It was not stored in the cellar but "upstairs" - in the living area (which is also not perfect but at least not damp).
On the other hand I only know colours fading with old stock, not darkening. Have you checked your films against a bright light with a magnifying glass?

[rweilert]

Good ideas - I will check this.

However, the films are not THAT old, maybe about 15 - 20 years, and the Standard 8 ones are K 25 - this material shouldn't change too much. Parts of the S 8 film we watched were Agfa, and they show the spreckles which were discussed elsewhere and seem to be erasable so far.

I used to store the films in the upper floor in our house, but after the hot 2003 summer, I decided to put them in the former heating oil chamber downstairs as this room has a thick steel door and a relatively constant temperature. It's dry enough there, I think, as the house's heating is just next door and keeps the whole area dry.

Anyway, I'll take another look at the films, and I will watch more of the collection, maybe there's another reason I can find.

Does someone know if there's a brighter alternative to the projector lamps today, something one could just change? After all, any beamer lamp would be way brighter than the 100 W halogene lamps used then...

Rolf

[BK]

Hello Rolf, maybe your projector just needs a fresh new bulb. The light output decreases significantly with a faulty or old one that's almost finished.

I have not ecountered colour films that darken with ageing, only the opposite and turning all pink in colour. Luckily, not my priceless home movies but commercial package movies. Heat tend to accelerate this aging process so store your films in a cool and dry place.

For preservation and viewing, having them transfered to a digital format is a viable option.

Bill

[Uppsala BildTeknik]

... turning all pink in colour. Luckily, not my priceless home movies but commercial package movies.

I have seen lots of commercial movies and copied 8mm movies that faded pretty badly to red/pink. They don´t seem to last as long as the camera-originals. The emulsion used in the process of massproducing or copying 8mm film seems to have bad archival properties.

[BK]

Yeah, they tend to be the cheapest emulsion available for those packaged movies, unless they were printed on 16mm Kodachrome like in the earlier years, now those ones really last and are highly collectable.

Bill

[rweilert]

This could be one reason: the lamps going old. I'll try to get a new one and test. Does someone know a good source in Germany?

But I really would like to know if there isn't an alternative. After all, the same lamp technology is used for still projectors. Wasn't there anyone who looked for a better lamp for those? As far as I understand, slides are still more in use than film.

Well, most of my (better) self-made films are in tin cans, so they should last for some years on in our cellar (yeah, cool and dry like the wine).

Rolf

[Davideo]

I buy all my bulbs from www.topbulb.com. Reasonable rates and fast service.

To do process of elimination, check your films on a different projector or film editor screen and see if it looks the same. That way you can determine if it's the film or the projector.

[8mm]

If the projector uses a 100 W 12 V halogen lamp is should not be too hard to find. Try a photo dealer first if they might have it.

[jpolzfuss]

This could be one reason: the lamps going old. I'll try to get a new one and test. Does someone know a good source in Germany?

http://super8wiki.com/index.php/Category:FAQ#Germany

[rweilert]

Good link - thanks a lot!

Rolf