Diy telecine unit

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Uppsala BildTeknik
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by Uppsala BildTeknik »

MovieStuff wrote:Well, the truth is this it makes me feel bad.
Nah, you are too much of a nice guy. I´ll have to increase my pleasure to make things even then. ;)

Just kidding. But I think that people who copy your design and idea, compete with you for clients and refer/link directly to your webpage deserve all they can get. To let them use the software that was custom-built for your design would be insane.

You and Jeff are doing nothing wrong at all. It is the unethical idiots that copied your design and lied to you that should be the ones feeling bad. But since they probably aren´t feeling badthey deserve to be in the position they are now. With a buttload of units (hopefully) and no software to go with it.

A tip for anyone wanting to build telecine units, write the software that is needed, or hire someone to write the software. Oh, it is expensive? Well raise the price on those telecine units then. ;)
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by camera8mm »

i see. so if you have the idea for something its yours and everything else is a complete knockoff.
i get it. really explains why cameras from certain era look alike. it was YOUR design for one of them the the other companies stole that design.
no one had ever thought of or wrote about frame capture before. yeah right.
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by MovieStuff »

camera8mm wrote:i see. so if you have the idea for something its yours and everything else is a complete knockoff.
If someone makes a unit that looks exactly like my product and tells their customers they are resellers for my product when they are not, then that is a knock off, which is what has happened many times over the last couple of years. I have never made a big deal about it because I didn't want to give these people exposure. Someone making a different looking product than mine and calling it something different is not a knock-off. Someone copying and pasting information from my copyrighted website and purposely copying the look of my equipment is a knock-off.
camera8mm wrote:i get it.
I don't think you do. I could care less if someone wants to make a frame by frame unit of their own and the archives of this very forum as well as Mike Brantley's old forum will attest to how helpful I have been to others over the years. Not everyone can afford to buy a unit and some people make their own. I don't really even care if people make their own design and sell it. I do care if they are essentially impersonating my product, which threatens the good name and reputation that I have worked hard to maintain. If you read my previous posts in this thread you will better understand my concerns.
camera8mm wrote:.....no one had ever thought of or wrote about frame capture before. yeah right.
Well, actually, that is 100% correct. Before the WorkPrinter, the only options for video transfer were a flying spot scanner or a film chain with a multi-bladed shutter or something really horrible like a Goko revolving prism or an old Elmo TRV unit. There was no way to capture 8mm and 16mm film frame by frame using a video camera and digital capture before I developed and offered the WorkPrinter. That's just a fact, whether you are aware of it or not. Old timers here can attest to this information.

The original WorkPrinter used Premier stop motion capture function, which was a fairly new feature about 9-10 years ago. I had made a unit for myself and for a few people I had met on the internet. They weren't called WorkPrinter's then. They didn't even have a name. These people thought it was cool and encouraged me to start selling them. After losing everything in Tropical Storm Alison in 2001, I needed to start a new business so that is what I did.

Do a google search or look at the wayback machine. You won't find anyone on any forum during that time period that I'm aware of talking about capturing with a video camera frame by frame to a digital capture program. I'm sorry if you don't believe me but others here have known about me for a long, long time. Or haven't you noticed that when someone makes a frame by frame telecine unit they often call it a "WorkPrinter" even if it wasn't made by me? ;)

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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by Blue Audio Visual »

Well...

A very brief Google search turned up the following patent filed in 1993:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5469209.html

In accordance with this invention, an apparatus for generating video signals from a photographic image previously recorded on film (a cine-video system) is provided, which includes a film transport mechanism for advancing or rewinding the film in order to position a film frame at a film gate for projection, an image projector which detects when a film frame is positioned at the film gate and projects an illuminated image of that frame, a video pickup system which receives the image and generates a video signal which represents it, and an output circuit which produces a resultant output video signal. Thus, a new image is received and a new video frame is generated, when a new film frame is positioned in the film gate.

But to be fair to Roger the system described there (I've only skimmed through it) is still somewhat different in concept to his. But is most definitely is 'frame-by-frame' imaging using a video camera. What is different is that Rogers concept involves reconstructing the original running speed using a computer. Like I say I haven't really read the patent in any depth whatsoever, so I may well be missing something. In any case I found that after searching for about 2 mins, there may well be many more out there.

Anyway, whether or not anyone else may have had a similar idea before is not the point. Roger was still the first to deliver an affordable working solution for small-gauge film to market.
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by Uppsala BildTeknik »

camera8mm wrote:I see. so if you have the idea for something its yours and everything else is a complete knockoff.
You you for real? Or do you actually think that someone who makes:

1- A product that visually looks a lot like "product A".
2- Calls it "product A".
3- Possibly even sells it with copied images from the webpage of "produt A".
4- Sells it with copied text from the webpage of "product A".
5- Refers to, and uses, the same software as "product A" in order to function properly.

You don´t think this is a complete knockoff? Wow. I´d say it is as goddamn much knockoff as it can be!

camera8mm wrote:no one had ever thought of or wrote about frame capture before.
If you had been around for long enough you´d know that Roger is the one who designed "The Workprinter". I don´t think he has ever claimed to have the rights to all frame-by-frame capturing devices there are. Just the ones that look like the one he designed and wotrks with the software that he had cutomdesigned to work with his products.

I guess you haven´t been the target for knockoffs, have you? I mean something you wrote/designed haven´t been copied, right? If you had, I bet you would have another way of looking at this.

It is not fun when someone copies YOUR product, and starts offering i to the public in direct competition. I know, I have been the target for knockoffs too. A Swedish company wanted to start offering 8mm filmtransfers, and they wanted to use my company as the one actually doing the transfers, while they just had a webpage up and collected clients. Actually thay already had the webpage up, they just didn´t have anyone to transfer the films.

At first I thought about it, but it turned out they were complete mororns who neither knew nor understood nothing about telecine or filmformats or DVDs. I called them under a different name, asking questions about the service. They answered so "off the charts" about what they offered I just knew that unhappy clients was definetly something they would get.

Anyway, to make a long story short (too late for that), I rejected them, they COMPLETELY copied text from my webpage. Just copy + paste. I called them and they first answered with "well what we offer is so simiar, it is only natural to have the same text". Yeah, right! After I threatened to sue them, they said they would change a few words here and there, and that "it wouldn´t be a copy then". I told them "Yeah, right. Let the court decide on that. Do you really think it will hold in a court?"

Finally, they wrote text to their own damn webpage. It was all based on my webpage, but it was their own words, not mine. Not as well written as the information I had on my webpage and not as informative. They are still out there today, and they have transfer-shops in two swedish towns. And they deliver shit-quality to their clients, while on the webpage they say they only use the best hardware and "colorcorrect the films in the extent it is possible" (or something like that). By the looks of the transfers thay make, they don´t colorcorrect it at all and they are most definetly not using the best hardware possible.

They are up on my webpage as one of the examples of how bad a transfer can be, to show people how big difference in image quality they can get from different companies. I haven´t written their name on my webpage, as I don´t want to push them in the dirt officially. It isn´t good business to do, and it would make me look bad.

But damn, I hate people who knockoff products or text!

So, basically, if someone wants to make fram-by-frame units, LET THEM.
At the same time, let them write or order their own software from someone who can write software. Let them write any text they want to use on their auctions/webpages and let them take any pictures they want of their own product. Let them put links to their own webpage on their own auctions. Let them give their product a name of their own, not calling it a Workprinter.

A Workprinter is Moviestuff product. That is just the way it is.
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by MovieStuff »

Blue Audio Visual wrote:Well...

A very brief Google search turned up the following patent filed in 1993:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5469209.html
That's interesting. I had never seen that before. When I built the first WorkPrinter unit for myself, I was just interested in getting frame accurate transfers of my own home movies. I had a small business making optical printers before for the low budget film industry and I was an experienced animator so the concept of taking each frame of film and transferring it frame by frame to video using an animation program seemed like a natural fit. Obviously, other people thought about or wanted this also or I would not have sold 3000+ units in the last almost 8 years. But my point was that, at the time I came up with the unit, I found no one on any forum discussing the concept or attempting to do it. To my knowledge, I was the first to "do it" by any appreciable measure. There's an old saying among engineers,"Bell invented the telephone but Edison made it work." ;)

But, again, my goal was never to try and shut down anyone that wanted to do it themselves. My concern lately has simply been one of protecting my product identity and reputation as well as keeping unscrupulous sellers from taking advantage of how easy it is to fool people on the internet.

Roger
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by ronnoco »

Oooooops you weren't the chicken or the egg after all 8O

Never mind you have still had 8 successful years of selling your overpriced products. Just my humble opinion...
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by MovieStuff »

ronnoco wrote:Oooooops you weren't the chicken or the egg after all 8O
Nonsense. I didn't copy anyone's design nor did I depend on a convenient website to show me how to do it. I did the R&D myself and no one had done it before. In fact, the website showing how to make a frame by frame transfer unit referenced my website from the very beginning. The irony is that I purposely did not seek a patent back then so that others could build their own for their own use. If I had secured a patent (which my attorney said was viable), then I would have had to shut down anyone that was making a unit using the same concept, whether it was really a threat to my business or not. That's just the way patents are. You have to enforce them vigorously or lose all rights to exclusivity and I didn't want to appear like the bad guy. So the only reason you have been able to build your unit using plans from the internet is because I decided to not be greedy and allowed the information to be shared.
ronnoco wrote: Never mind you have still had 8 successful years of selling your overpriced products. Just my humble opinion...
Coming from someone that doesn't offer a warranty on the unit he's selling, that's easy to understand.

BTW: If your ebay auction tops out at the same price as my WorkPrinter, I'm sure that you will give some of that money back to the auction winner, right? :roll:

Roger
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by Uppsala BildTeknik »

ronnoco wrote:Never mind you have still had 8 successful years of selling your overpriced products. Just my humble opinion...
Oh, and it was your auction that stated the following:

"This is a private sale of a custom built transfer unit. I am not a commercial seller and I am not affiliated with any other individual or company.

Because the unit uses a machine built in the 70’s I cannot offer any guarantees as to its future operational reliability."

So you sell your unit WITHOUT paying any taxes, WITHOUT giving any warranty and WITHOUT having to figure out how to build the unit. Pretty easy to keep the prices low then, wouldn´t you agree?

Try slapping on a full warranty and paying all income taxes from the sale. And have someone write you some custom software while at it. Then you can talk about being overpriced or not. :roll:
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by granfer »

Ronnoco,

If I didn't think that it's just possible that your remarks could be interpreted as mischievious (and if they are you should be ashamed of yourself as this is a serious subject) then I would consider them just pathetic.

And from someone who hides behind a nom-de-plume !!!!

Granfer (for those who don't already know- Clive Jones)
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by ronnoco »

Nonsense. I didn't copy anyone's design
Didn't say you had....I was talking about the patent that describes the concept of scanning film with video.
So the only reason you have been able to build your unit using plans from the internet is because I decided to not be greedy and allowed the information to be shared.
Many thanks
Coming from someone that doesn't offer a warranty on the unit he's selling, that's easy to understand.
I've described exactly what I am selling...no one is compelled to bid on it
"This is a private sale of a custom built transfer unit. I am not a commercial seller and I am not affiliated with any other individual or company.
Absolutley true...and your point is ?
Because the unit uses a machine built in the 70’s I cannot offer any guarantees as to its future operational reliability."
Also true...which is why I made it absolutley clear to any potential bidders
So you sell your unit WITHOUT paying any taxes
Hey have you been looking at my tax return.. 8O
WITHOUT having to figure out how to build the unit.
I didn't have to ..the instructions are freely available to all with a computer and and an internet connection...google is a useful tool for finding information.

As a consumer I am perfectly entitled to decide for myself if I think something is over priced or not....

I live in the real world
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by MovieStuff »

ronnoco wrote:
Nonsense. I didn't copy anyone's design
Didn't say you had....I was talking about the patent that describes the concept of scanning film with video.
Which my patent attorney no doubt saw when doing a patent search for me during exploratory but felt, in his professional opinion, that my design was in the clear. But be careful about the pretense of your argument because if I'm violating someone's patent, then it is a sure bet that you are, too. ;)

What bothers me is that this entire scenario is playing out exactly like I feared it would long ago: If I had patented the method and enforced it, then DIY people would try to portray me as a bad guy. Now that I try to protect my interests by limiting access to the software I helped develop for my units, that is exactly what's happening. I made a good faith effort to allow the concept for frame by frame digital capture to be public domain so that people like you and others could benefit from it. I don't expect you to kiss my ass over it but I find your attitude a bit overly defensive for someone that feels confident they didn't do anything wrong.
ronnoco wrote:
So the only reason you have been able to build your unit using plans from the internet is because I decided to not be greedy and allowed the information to be shared.
Many thanks
You can also thank my patent attorney that I had to pay for the patent search so that the plans you used for building your unit would be freely available.
ronnoco wrote:
Coming from someone that doesn't offer a warranty on the unit he's selling, that's easy to understand.
I've described exactly what I am selling...no one is compelled to bid on it
But they do have to bid on it in an auction, right? What, no "Buy it Now" price? ;)
ronnoco wrote: I live in the real world
Actually, in the real world, there is something called "overhead", which is based on the cost of staff, office, customer service, warranty, research, patent lawyers fees, etc - all of which affect the final price of a given product. Take all of that out of the equation by letting someone else shoulder the costs and one can reduce the price quite a bit. Good luck on your auction. Maybe it will sell for as much as my overpriced WorkPrinters. If so, you will make far more per unit than I currently do.

But then, you already knew that. ;)

Roger
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by ronnoco »

I'm not sure exactly what it is that I have done that is wrong...

I can perfectly understand anybody like yourself who has built up a successful business through hard work attempting to protect their interest...good on ya

What irks me is the suggestion that I have personally in some way 'pinched' someone elses idea.

Like many other small gauge film shooters out there that want to continue with a hobby that they love I was looking at ways to keep cost down.

Through this forum I have learned so much...I also found the onsuper8 website and the link to the instructions on how to modify a particular model of projector.
As luck would have it I owned the very same projector and being a bit of a whizz with a soldering iron I thought to myself ...I'm gonna have a go at building that project.To my amazement the ruddy thing actually worked.

Before I built the DIY unit I visited your website often and salivated over your units wishing I had the money to buy one ...but the costs of the unit, shipping, import tax, vat etc meant they were well out of my reach.

I was starting to get requests from folks to shoot super 8 film of their band or wedding etc...I need a cheap way of transfering the films to video for editing..I considered all sorts of expensive (to me anyhow) ways of doing this...then I found the instructions to make the DIY unit.

Being a bit of a tinkerer and coming ito possesion of a few nice plano convex lenses I decided to build another unit...only better than the first...which I kinnda threw together.

My kitchen table was beginning to look like 'John Brown's shipyard...the wife was not a happy bunny...'why do you need two of those things' she asked..

I had to concede that I didn't...'sell the bloody thing on ebay' she said...hmmm

theres a thought said I...its now listed on ebay...which is an auction site...you gotta admit most sellers auction their wares on there.

Now I did link to you website...I regret doing that and tried to remove the link...onest guv...but ebay would not let me...I was simply suggesting to potential buyers what a commercially produced based around the same principal mechanics as the one I had on offer would cost.

I also suggested that CinCap was the best software to use with the unit..did I do something wrong there ?

Anyways availability of the software is no more...I have tested another program that works well witht the unit and I have informed all potential bidders that CineCap is no longer available...try Capturix instead...

I have made it clear from the start of the auction that I was not providing any software with the unit...the availability of CineCap changed after the start of the auction and I informed potential bidders as soon as I discovere this.

I really don't think I have done anything wrong...I simply built a DIY telecine device that was surplus to my requirements and stuck it up on ebay ...millions of folk worldwide do the same with their 'stuff'

If you read back through this thread I really don't think I am the one who has been defensive :wink:

I am curious though to see what the unit will make :wink:

Cos if its worth my while you can bet ya bottom dollar I'm gonna build another :wink:
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by JCook »

I have DodCap version 1.36 and a purchase order for the license key.

I swapped PCs last year and haven't reloaded DodCap yet and had forgotten the name CineCap existed. I just installed on my laptop to make sure I could still license the software, tada, it worked.

Is there anyway for valid users to purchase updates/upgrades or to go to CineCap? OBTW what is the latest version?

Yeah I know wrong forum for these questions not trying to steal your thunder.

Happy New Year! :D
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Re: Diy telecine unit

Post by MovieStuff »

ronnoco wrote:I'm not sure exactly what it is that I have done that is wrong...
I never said you did anything wrong. But, in light of the facts, it is disingenuous to pretend that your success in building and selling your units has nothing to do with my previous efforts and it is obtuse to ignore that a difference in overhead has more to do with a difference in price than any inherent difference in value.
ronnoco wrote: I can perfectly understand anybody like yourself who has built up a successful business through hard work attempting to protect their interest...good on ya
I'm glad you understand.

ronnoco wrote: What irks me is the suggestion that I have personally in some way 'pinched' someone elses idea.
What irks me is the suggestion that I simply did the same or that I am trying to repress the efforts of others when, in fact, I have gone out of my way to provide as much useful information as I can. I mean, let's be clear: You had no beef until you couldn't get the software and had to look elsewhere for it. So better I should ask, "What did I do that was wrong?"
ronnoco wrote: Before I built the DIY unit I visited your website often and salivated over your units wishing I had the money to buy one ...but the costs of the unit, shipping, import tax, vat etc meant they were well out of my reach.
And that makes my units overpriced because you can't afford them? I'm glad you were able to make your own unit and I'm sorry that limiting access to the software hindered your auction in any way, which I doubt. But I never insulted your product so I see no reason to insult mine through sophistic financial reasoning. Again, you lack the same overhead that I have to carry, so if your unit sells for as much as mine, you'll make a much larger profit. I say more power to you. But, remember, you're the one that feels my units are overpriced at $1500. What if your unit sells for the same price?
ronnoco wrote: Now I did link to you website...I regret doing that and tried to remove the link...onest guv...but ebay would not let me...I was simply suggesting to potential buyers what a commercially produced based around the same principal mechanics as the one I had on offer would cost.
Actually, I love it when people link to my website. The more the merrier, which is why I didn't object when the "how to" website linked to mine long ago. I could have objected but I didn't. I don't care if you put a link to my website because it is, after all, free publicity for me and the buying public can make up their own mind about what they want to purchase. What I DO mind, and I made this very clear early on in this thread, is when people (not you) copy wholesale from my website in a fraudulent attempt to take business from me through deception. I made it clear that I did not consider your unit to be a knock-off and, to be even clearer, I never said you made a knock-off. But you reacted as if I did. Why is only known to you.
ronnoco wrote:I also suggested that CinCap was the best software to use with the unit..did I do something wrong there ?
Did you actually read the previous thread or this one? Limiting CineCap had nothing to do with you. I was responding to your assertion that the author of CineCap would be missing out on a few sales.
ronnoco wrote: If you read back through this thread I really don't think I am the one who has been defensive :wink:
Don't be confused. There is a difference between being "defensive" and being "weary" of explaining the obvious over and over.

Good luck.

Roger
Last edited by MovieStuff on Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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