Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

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bahia0019
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by bahia0019 »

Adam,
Not a bad idea, but let me make some money first :D
And if we found someone local to develop, we could corner the market on the UT film school.

Roger,
Thanks for the insight. I saw on your site that you do transfers as well. What kind of turnaround do you have?
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Patrick
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by Patrick »

Adamgarner: "It's better than off the wall, but understand it still uses the projector as the source of the image."

I think it would be best to clarify that with a Workprinter, the 'projector' is no longer projecting. The video camera is pointed right at the projector lens to lens and is viewing the surface of the film rather than a projected image. Ive seen some very nice results with Workprinters and Flashscans but as has been already suggested, the experience and competence of the operator is just as important as the equipment.
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adamgarner
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by adamgarner »

Yes, Bahia, Patrick makes a good point. If you didn't notice already, the moviestuff setup points the camera at the projector through a condenser lens and a mirror. So, technically it is not "off the wall." Roger can probably detail the workings of the lens, but the overall effect is that you get more accurate light through the film.

For reversal film the moviestuff line is a proven asset to smaller shops as it makes an amazing scan.

I'm still interested in seeing what the negatives look like. Roger, have you ever experimented with some sort of non-contact cleaning solution for negatives? Seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to make. In my mind a flow of air across the film as it goes into the gate would alleviate the dust problem at least 80%. Not sure if there's any truth in that though.
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by MovieStuff »

adamgarner wrote:Yes, Bahia, Patrick makes a good point. If you didn't notice already, the moviestuff setup points the camera at the projector through a condenser lens and a mirror. So, technically it is not "off the wall." Roger can probably detail the workings of the lens, but the overall effect is that you get more accurate light through the film.

For reversal film the moviestuff line is a proven asset to smaller shops as it makes an amazing scan.
Thanks. Just to clarify how the WorkPrinter images, you can look at it from two different points of view: You are viewing back through the optical path directly at the film surface -or- you are projecting an image directly onto the CCD of the camera. The same thing, either way. The bottom line is that the WorkPrinter will offer up a higher resolution image than any broadcast camera can resolve so you are really limited only by the quality of the camera that you use with the WorkPrinter.
adamgarner wrote:I'm still interested in seeing what the negatives look like. Roger, have you ever experimented with some sort of non-contact cleaning solution for negatives? Seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to make. In my mind a flow of air across the film as it goes into the gate would alleviate the dust problem at least 80%. Not sure if there's any truth in that though.
The problem is really not that simple to attenuate. Negative and reversal, in my opinion, both scratch just as easily. I do not share the widely held opinion that negative is more fragile. I think that, simply because it has less density throughout, that specs and abrasions show up easier on negative than reversal, which is mostly dense unless you are shooting sky, snow or desert. That density helps to hide such specs and abrasions on reversal whereas on negative the same defects will show up more readily.

It is possible that some sort of air introduced at the gate might help but dirt and scratches are only part of the equation. Getting a workable positive image with most cameras and NLE software is problematic. I know that Mitch and Justin have done tremendous things with standard cameras and negative, so it can obviously be done. But it is not intuitive. Since I have about 3000+ customers that require hand-holding just for reversal transfers, I can not really afford to endorse transferring negative with our units, knowing all the inherent arcane problems that will be associated with that practice. I would be on the phone 24/7 trying to explain how to make negative transfers work. So even if it is possible, the potential for eating my time is too great because, in the end, that will affect the price of all my units; even for people not doing negative transfers. ;)

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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by lealar »

I've had moderate success at converting negatives with a unit I bought on Ebay for $800 that is similar in design to Roger's EZScan unit. I got what I paid for...in this instance no led even illumination, no dc motor to drive the film though I've had no major problems with the AC motor "drifting", and the most annoying...the film, especially negatives, tend to "bow" or bend at the side of the gate where the sprocket holes are. This misalignment ensures I can never evenly focus that side of the frame. Should've waited longer to buy the real thing.

Despite this I've used my 3CCD cam to import into Vegas and run the invert filter along with color wheel adjustments. I would tape it, then import, but as of late I've been feeding the output of the cam through S-video into my capture card, thereby eliminating the taping part and capturing in uncompressed avi. I now use Virtualdub and its filters for the inversion/color balancing part of the process, it's made the process quicker.

Here's a telecine test I ran on some Pro8mm 160T footage of a short I'm currently working on. The audio was captured for reference on an old micro cassette recorder left on a nearby table. I plan to dub the dialog later on.

http://vimeo.com/2434597
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Getting good results.

Post by TedL »

MovieStuff wrote: (snip)
I have seen incredible off the wall transfers that were far superior to what one of our Sniper Pros produced simply because the Sniper Pro user didn't know what the hell they were doing and/or just figured that since they spent $7000+ dollars, then the machine should be magical and they could just coast. It just doesn't work that way. Assuming that you are having your footage transferred on a decent machine, like a FlashScan, Rank, Sniper, Tobin, etc, operator input is -hands down- the make or break of the deal in terms of final quality.
Roger
I agree completely. I think that part of enabling the purchaser of equipment to get the best results is vendor-supplied training, whether the equipment is fairly simple, or sophisticated.

A sharply focused "off the wall" transfer made with careful exposure, a high resolution SD or HD camera and a very dark room can be enhanced with careful scene to scene color correction.

The point is that it takes a committed, knowledgeable person and time to achieve the end result.

A completely optical transfer should look better prior to processing, depending on the mechanics and optics of the equipment involved.

But if care is not taken to set up the equipment properly or operate the system within its "best results zone," one can expect crappy results....from a million-dollar Spirit and high-end color corrector (the "big iron" stuff) or from a much less expensive system.

Its why the big-iron stuff is operated by colorists who have training and are being paid to pay attention to what's happening during the transfer.

The differences in equipment cost relate to the amount of product design and engineering involved to assure film safety, picture quality, ease of use and productivity for the user.

Whatever process or equipment is used, the care put into the work often makes the difference.

Hope this is helpful.

Ted

(US/Canadian distributor for MWA products including flashscan & flashcan HD)
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by Pj »

I use Super 8 a lot and until recently always had my films transferred to digital by professionals using high end Rank Cintels, Ursas etc, believing them to be the best. I have used various places in London like the BBC, The Machine Room and others. These professional telecines are good, but I found I had two problems; they are expensive and for me the Super transfers haven't always been great. I believe this is because a lot of operators rarely transfer contemporary Super 8 film. I think you need someone who really understands Super 8 and the needs of the contemporary filmmaker.

I have recently switched over to having my films transferred by a process similar to the Workprinters, a DIY system; frame by frame scanning using a modified projector, an enlarged gate, LED light source and a Machine Vision camera. A lot of people on this board have mades such systems, only recently someone posted a link to their 'homebrew' system.

I have found the results are astonshingly good, and I must say better than my professional transfers. I have had reversal and negative film transferred with this process and they look good even the negative looks really good, so it is possible to have very good quality negative transfers, I know several people transferring negative film using this method.

I have been so impressed so I'm building my own unit (I'm hoping to finish it in mid August). Since I am now using a lot of negative film I want to concentrate on transferring negative widescreen (Max 8) film. I think there are two issues with negative;

i) you need to keep the film very clean
ii) you need to remove the orange colour of negative before the film is captured

I have worked out the projector needs to have a combination of filters and blue /turquoise LEDs, this would make the invert process and colour correcting much easier. As soon as I get it up and running I wil put some samples up online.

You can see some of my work transferred by a DIY frame by frame scanning here;

negative film ;
http://www.vimeo.com/3175593

reversal film;

http://www.vimeo.com/5218035

P
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by Will2 »

Everything depends on the colorist on Rank transfers. Comes down to people more than machines.
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Re: Can someone tell me the difference??? (telecine)

Post by Justin Lovell »

I second what will says.

The operator/colorist makes all the difference.. and the gear goes hand in hand with that.

I have had great results with our modified Sniper setups. We have spent quite a bit of time on R&D and testing to get the additional components up to snuff for what I want to do, and it has payed off. I've had a company in france redesign their color corrector for our suite to be able to do uncompressed realtime SDI color correction and monitoring with user definable scene files, curves and slider adjustments. Pumped that we've been able to take it as far as we have!

Our next step is implementing the SI2k Mini for RAW cineform capturing in 2k of super 8 and super 16.

For me as a filmmaker and cinematographer, being able to AFFORDABLY offer to shoot on super 16 and super 8 for aesthetic reasons is truly amazing.

Big thanks out to Roger at http://www.moviestuff.tv for all the support he's given me and our cinematographer collective at http://www.framediscreet.blogspot.com
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