16 mm. What camera to buy

[Will2]

This is a great discussion, sorry if I seem overly passionate about it... I spent much time with this question about 4 years ago and I'm excited to help someone through the same process.

I'm not disrespecting hand cranked cameras. I have several and enjoy them from time to time. The K-100 is I beautiful design and lasts about twice as much as any other camera on one crank. I used only hand cranked cameras for about 10 years until during a shoot I realized how many shots I was missing and had to stop the action while I wound the camera and checked my meter. This is less of a problem on well planned and choreographed projects.

If hand cranked cameras were good enough for Billy Wilder and John Ford, then they must be good for the rest of humanity.

If you are Billy Wilder or John Ford you have alot more going for you than the camera. It's not about the camera, it's about the artist.

Is the Scoopic a c-mount? I'm curious about this camera. It seems like such a great run-and-gun camera for 16mm. Originally designed for the news, I think it'd be the "easiest" for quick use. Apparently, you can even attach a magazine to it, on the 16MS.

No, not a C mount. It's a fixed lens. That was my biggest problem with one BEFORE I had one. Once I started shooting I had colorists asking me what camera/lens combo I was using because of how incredibly sharp the footage was. In the middle F-stop range it is amazingly sharp, but gets soft if you open or close it to the extremes.

I have the 16MS and the adapter with a 400ft magazine. While it seems like it might be appealing, it kind of defeats the camera's purpose in making it impossible to hand hold. Good to know it is possible, but I'm not sure how practical it is. If you need 400ft loads there are probably some better choices out there. The Scoopic's appeal is just how EASY it is to shoot, meter and reload on the go; much like a Super 8 camera with better optics and wider film. If you need an adapter, let me know; I have an extra one and they are hard to find.

I've read that the Beaulieu R16 is extremely loud, and shrill. Is this your take?

The Scoopic is quite loud too. If you need a quiet camera you need to look into another whole level. The Beaulieu R16 might be a great option too, I just found the Canon to be extremely solid and reliable (and newer).

[adamgarner]

I'm still wondering what "loud" means when talking about a Bolex vs. Beaulieu vs. Canon Scoopic vs. a small super8 variety like the 1014XL-S.

Would anyone see the benefit or be willing to upload sound files? I would be happy to contribute my 1014XL-S in a 5-10 second clip at 24fps.

Would this be a good "new topic?"

[adamgarner]

This is a great discussion, sorry if I seem overly passionate about it... I spent much time with this question about 4 years ago and I'm excited to help someone through the same process.

This is really useful so thanks for the post.

I guess my biggest concerns with moving to 16mm are the following.

1: Internal Light Meter and Auto Exposure : I LOVE having this sort of option, just like the 1014XL-S I shoot with. I don't want to forgo auto-exposure. It seems tough to figure out what cameras have it and which don't. It seems that a Scoopic a Bolex EL, and an R16 have the auto iris? It's hard to tell, but is the scoopic auto-iris, or does it just give a light reading? For some reason, none of this is as straight forward as the super 8 stuff.

2: Interchangeable lenses : This isn't really a deal breaker, but I like the thought of c-mount options.

3: Noise : It seems like all these 16mm cameras are a little loud? Louder than a super 8? Hard to tell.

4: Battery : I get worried about old batteries, or re-cells. I just don't fully understand the issues. Can I assume that a re-cell will work like any new battery?

5: Magazine? : I like the idea of a magazine option for doing a feature. I don't want it now, but I want the expandability.

The scoopic seems like a great entry level camera with modern bells and whistles.

[T-Scan]

I owned a beautiful Beaulieu R16 for a while and it shot amazing pictures with the Angenieux. But I sold it off in place of a Bolex Rex 4. Opted for the Bolex for better portability and single frame option. Sounds like you are Beaulieu vs Scoopic... Both have auto exposure but the beaulieu has C-mount.

[rufus_blackwell]

Remember it's not what camera you have, it's what you point it at that counts.

Saying that, it sounds like you need a Beaulieu R16 cos they and make you look 20% cooler than any other camera, guaranteed.

[sk360]

the one bad thing about Bolex's is the viewfinder. It's a beam splitter prism, so it can be dam hard to see what you shooting when you stop-up or use filters.

[Herb Montes]

the one bad thing about Bolex's is the viewfinder. It's a beam splitter prism, so it can be dam hard to see what you shooting when you stop-up or use filters.

That's why the reflex Bolex also has the side finder. Almost all 16mm cameras are noisy whether spring wound or electric. Unless they're made specifically for sound filming like the Eclair NPR or the CP-16.

For magazine options forget the Beaulieu. The magazine only holds 200' daylight spools which are impossible to find much less buy 200' daylight loads from Kodak. The Bolex M5 and Rex5 have the magazine saddle if you want to add a 400 foot magazine but you will need an attached electric motor and magazine motor to drive it adding to the weight. Some models of the Bell & Howell model 70 have a magazine option which also requires an add-on motor. Adding a magazine to these cameras make them difficult to handhold. Those that can rest on the shoulder like the NPR and CP-16 are better when using larger film loads. If I may venture into unknown territory there is the Russian made Kinor-16 SX-2M which is an electric powered camera with 100 foot and 400 foot interchangeable magazines. The 100 foot magazines can take daylight spools or film on cores. Reputable dealers like Olex and Rafael sell them and can answer your questions about them. Expect to pay around a $1,000 or more for one of these outfits but it possible to get them for less.

http://www.geocities.com/russiancamera/ ... ameras.htm

http://www.rafcamera.com/

[Jim Carlile]

Remember that a Scoopic's going to be a lot more $$ than a K-100 or the little B/H.

Too bad 16mm magazines are not around any more (realistically)-- the little Kodak and B/H magazine cameras are fantastic and easy to find.

[Will2]

Remember that a Scoopic's going to be a lot more $$ than a K-100 or the little B/H.

True. A Scoopic MS or MN will run about $600-$800 while a K3 will be around $180 and a K-100 maybe $80-120.

Also keep in mind that ANY camera you buy should be serviced to make sure it's running well and will last for a few more years. That can add another $100-200.

[CineGuerrilha]

I'm now with Herb. I own a kinor and I have to say that since I bought it (more than 2 yr ago) I never look at 16mm lists in ebay. It's an awesome camera. It's a bit noisy but with my handmade pillow blimp it emits around 35db (and a bit less with 30m mag). Rafael and Olexandr can convert it to s16 for ~1K$ and Olexandr also converts the motor to crystal sync. Mine was converted by Olexandr to shoot multiple speeds

[Filmblut]

Would anyone see the benefit or be willing to upload sound files? I would be happy to contribute my 1014XL-S in a 5-10 second clip at 24fps.

Here is my Bolex SB in action...

I used binaural earplug-microphones, so the bolex was pretty close to my ears...err...the microphones.

Question 1: When is the bolex running (it's only a few seconds)?
Question 2: What day (night) was that ?

Headphones recommended, but...be careful! Put one or two fingers on the volume-control!

You have been warned

[Herb Montes]

I'm now with Herb. I own a kinor and I have to say that since I bought it (more than 2 yr ago) I never look at 16mm lists in ebay. It's an awesome camera. It's a bit noisy but with my handmade pillow blimp it emits around 35db (and a bit less with 30m mag). Rafael and Olexandr can convert it to s16 for ~1K$ and Olexandr also converts the motor to crystal sync. Mine was converted by Olexandr to shoot multiple speeds

Last year I was needing an electric 16mm camera with 400 foot capacity so I began putting together a Kinor outfit. I had gotten a body, lens and several 100 foot mags from Rafael. All it needed was the motor and 400 foot mags which I was going to get from Olex. Then a deal came up on buying a CP-16R so I went ahead and got that instead. The Kinor still sits on my shelf needing a motor.

[super8man]

Reading all this made me pick up a R16 Electric...go figure. Nice to point out that you really don't need the 400-foot mag on the scoopic - it's big enough as is. I enjoy my 16MS. It's a keeper.

Cheers,
Mike

[reflex]

Beaulieu are to cameras what jaguar are to cars. I went to 16mm a few months ago and have never looked back.

:lol: Yes, both have incredibly flawed electrical systems. (drum roll, please!]

I have a strange affinity to Beaulieus as well. God knows why. They're expensive to repair and fiddly to load. They do look cool, though.

[sk360]

That's why the reflex Bolex also has the side finder. Almost all 16mm cameras are noisy whether spring wound or electric. Unless they're made specifically for sound filming like the Eclair NPR or the CP-16.

For stationary shots you not going to have much of a problem, but if you have to move around it can be a real strain just to see what your filming. I hate using ND filters on my Bolex for that reason alone.

the Russian made Kinor-16 SX-2M which is an electric powered camera with 100 foot and 400 foot interchangeable magazines. The 100 foot magazines can take daylight spools or film on cores. Reputable dealers like Olex and Rafael sell them and can answer your questions about them. Expect to pay around a $1,000 or more for one of these outfits but it possible to get them for less.

I owned a Kinor a few years ago and really liked it (sort of the poor mans SR) and would of kept it if the mags were better made. the 12-75mm and 5.6mm were fantastic lenses.